Are all the gift's still in operation today?

[DoGMaTiX]

Hey smurfette, did you check out one of the arguments I used earlier in this thread?

Just wondering.

[SOLAFIDE]

I dont think I have, but I'll read it now...

pZ
SMURF

[ChristVader]

Futurist fallacy:

Christ is clearly saying that He came not to abolish the Law but to fullfil it through His earthly ministry to be that perfect sacrifice for sin on the cross. His obvious message here is referring to the OT Law and OT PROPHETS. What is this everything to be accomplished? Well lets look at the context. Its the accomplishment of the righteous requirments of the Law and the fullfilment of the OT prophesies of the Messiah. But that was already fullfilled in Christ. This has NOTHING to do with NT scriptures in the way you want it to be. Not one JOT or TITTLE of the OT Law and OT prophesies will fail because Christ came to fullfill them.

This is contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture. There is NO New Testament. The divisions of Old and New are recent inventions and are definatly not Inspired Divisions.

Paul in Acts before the Jerusalem Council clearly states and shows that there is NO DISTINCTION between what we today call the Old and New Testaments.

Christ question to Nick in John 3 shows the same thing when He ask, "...are you not a Teacher of Isreal, and do not know these things?".

"Heck No! I don't know these things dude(Jesus)!" Nick should have said. But no, once again Isreal and its Teachers DID know these things. Moses had told them in Deut 29 & 30 that some of Isreal would "get it" and some of Isreal "would not get it".

All Things are ALL Things. What things? ONE Thing. Gods redemptive Plan for Isreal. Fulfilled per Romans 9.

One Plan. One Book. One Story. Fulfilled from AD 33 thru AD 70. The gifts were a Physical Sign that ALL THINGS were being Fulfilled in that Generation.

Kent

[ctide1]

Vader:

God bless ya man.... you and I agree on this issue, we cannot debate existence of gifts between the cross & the return of Christ because we agree. We disagree on the timing of the return, therefore we need to use another thread to debate that.

Just like I cannot convince Roldan that the second coming has not already taken due to the fact that gifts are still here, because he doesn't believe they are still here.

Hyperpreterism and ceasationism are tied together, but are still different topics.

So I kindly and politly am saying, GET YA OWN THREAD!!! Just playing son...

[ctide1]

Solafide... permit me to try and point out the holes in your reasoning.

Reason 1)

Okay some of you are saying that the gift of prophesy is still intact today. I disagree because if God really gives word to someone, where are they??? Its obvious that if they really recieved new word from God, this someone should and would be on T.V telling it all. And if it really is new word from God, we as Christians would obviously have to be writing Every Single Word down and we would also add it to Scripture.

Answer1) Not all prophecy is or was scripture. Read 1 Cor, read the encounter of King Saul, read Acts. Many times in scipture people prophecied and it was not recorded. God has given us all we need for doctrine and law in the scripts... but God still speaks to individules and groups through many ways, one of which is prophecy. Even nature and the heavens declare the glory of God. The church reveals God's love. god is always revealing himself to people through many venues.

Reason 2)

And the Bible clearly tells us not to add or take away anything from His Word. So if God gave someone new word, they would have to add it, and it would be clearly a contradiction to Scripture.

Answer 2) Amen, God's word is sealed!!! Prophecy does not add to his word anymore then teaching or preaching. Like I said before, there were prophets in the early church that did not ever have there words in scripture. Just read Acts.


Reason 3)

Now some of you also said that the gift of healing is still intact. I also disagree with this because where is this healer??? Usually people claiming to be healers would attempt to heal someone. When the person is not healed... the healer says that the person did not have enough faith to be healed.

Answer 3) You are talking about false teachers and such, nobody can heal without God. Yet, God heals all the time. You have ZERO scriptural support to back up the fact that God does not heal anymore.

Reason 4)

So I say that how about this "healer" go to a Children's Hospital and try to heal a child. He wouldnt be able to say this child did not have enough faith to be healed because even Christ commanded us to have faith like a child. Thats why I dont think this gift is still in operation today.

Answer 4) Charismatics are blamed of basing there views on experience and emotion, when rather ceasationists base there belief on LACK of experience, even though it contradicts the scriptures.

Reason 5)

Lastly some of you think the gift of tongues is still in operation also... I also dont think this is still intact because basically... if it was a gift, why do people try to teach it? If it was a gift, there would be no point in trying ot teach it to others.

Answer 5) I agree!!!

Reason 6)

And also poeple think tongues was this huge spiritual gift when in reality it was a gift but it was used when language barriers were present. They used tongues so that everyone can understand the Gospel when it is being preached.

Answer 6) Again read 1 Cor.

Reason 7)

So how about some people who really has this gift go to somewhere like Africa and preach the gospel in tongues and lets see what they would really be telling the people.

Answer 7) You have to follow the leading of God, not do something to prove a point.

[ctide1]

Roldan

Hebrews 1:1,2
1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I see it as simple. God did speak to the nation of Isreal through prophets, yet now through Jesus Christ. (Your responce is "The Word was God & became flesh") but like I said before, prophets still existead during the in these last days the same last days Jude spoke about.

If teachers pastors and evangelists are only to declare the final revelation of Jesus Christ. What were they supposed to be doing at lets say in 47AD

First of all I never said ONLY.

Second, they were to be declaring the reveletion of Jesus Christ in bit-by bit revelations of Divine inspiration. But then came the Final and complete revelation, Gods Holy Word.

"Then came the Final and complete revelation" I agree to the COMPLETE revelation, not the final revelation. Does nature still reveal God's glory? Does the church reveal his love?

[ctide1]

man, this is getting all to familiar.................................................

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

man, this is getting all to familiar.................................................

My bad, I'll get on it today.

[DoGMaTiX]

I see it as simple. God did speak to the nation of Isreal through prophets, yet now through Jesus Christ. (Your responce is "The Word was God & became flesh") but like I said before, prophets still existead during the in these last days the same last days Jude spoke about.

Yes but its not that simple. What where the prophets declaring?

I agree to the COMPLETE revelation, not the final revelation. Does nature still reveal God's glory? Does the church reveal his love?

So you agree with the cessationist view of 1 Cor. 13? After all you just agreed to the scriptures being COMPLETE. The gifts were partial revelations and now we have the COMPLETE(to telion). yes?

You don't agree with the word being the final revelation? Again you must understand what kind of Revelation is in view here. I'll let you answer that first before I go on.

To your two questions I say AMEN! of course.

But again, What kind of Revelation is in view in the noncessation vs cessation controversy?

one

[ctide1]

No, I do not agree to the word being the final revelation. I believe it to be complete in itself, but not the only or final revelation. Heck, there were other prophectic revelation mentioned in scripture that was not scripture.

Scripture has been complete since 70ad, but prophecy is still needed for numerous reasons to compliment scripture and direct the church.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

No, I do not agree to the word being the final revelation. I believe it to be complete in itself, but not the only or final revelation. Heck, there were other prophectic revelation mentioned in scripture that was not scripture.

Ok, again here is the question.


What kind of Revelation is in view here? or What kind of Revelation is in view in the noncessation vs cessation controversy?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Scripture has been complete since 70ad, but prophecy is still needed for numerous reasons to compliment scripture and direct the church.

To direct to Church? So scripture is NOT sufficient.

Do you have scipture proof to show that these gifts continued after the epistles were written? If all scripture was written before 70 AD then where do you go to show any gifts after the completion of the revelatory process?

[ctide1]

Direction in specific areas. For instance, direction on finacial issues, on chosing leadership issues (out of multiple choises, all qualified by scripture), ect.... Certain decisions don't have "moral absolute right or wrong" options, because scripture gives no guidance on them.

[DoGMaTiX]

Do you have scipture proof to show that these gifts continued after the epistles were written? If all scripture was written before 70 AD then where do you go to show any gifts after the completion of the revelatory process?

What kind of Revelation is in view here? or What kind of Revelation is in view in the noncessation vs cessation controversy?

[ctide1]

Reguarding Teaching and Pastoring:

Do you have scipture proof to show that these gifts continued after the epistles were written? If all scripture was written before 70 AD then where do you go to show any gifts after the completion of the revelatory process?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Reguarding Teaching and Pastoring:

Do you have scipture proof to show that these gifts continued after the epistles were written? If all scripture was written before 70 AD then where do you go to show any gifts after the completion of the revelatory process?

Im assuming you don't have an answer, right?

[ctide1]

"Im assuming you don't have an answer, right?"

As I you.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

"Im assuming you don't have an answer, right?"

As I you.

LOL!! Are you serious? hahaahhaahaha

The old circular argument routine, nice.

[ctide1]

Circular because you incorrectly interpret 1 Cor 13. And that's the bottom line to our disagreement.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Circular because you incorrectly interpret 1 Cor 13. And that's the bottom line to our disagreement.

wow, and you haven't showed that yet. and you dodge questions with questions, so this is not going anywheres, so what you wanna do?