Are all the gift's still in operation today?

[ctide1]

dogmatix said:

ctide1 said:

Reguarding 2 Tim 3:16-17 which states

I would have to state that scripture is the final authority on rebuking a man, correcting a man & teaching a man, all of which MUST be part of a heathly church. So, if you believe men can teach, then you should not object to a man edifing, rebuking, ect... a ceasationist problem is with the prophet hearing directly from God, not with his particular actions per say.

I think what Azriel is asking is this.

Do you believe Ctide that the scriptures are sufficient in and of Itself to be used for these particular roles in the Church?

I say yes, because I believe in the Sufficiency of Scripture and Sola Scriptura.

How bout you?

YES!!!! Of course!!! Thats a given. Scripture is complete and sufficient for people. Again, that is not even a question for me. Scripture is sufficient for all prophecy, for all teaching, for evangelisim, for all direction.

That does not make prophets, evangelists, teachers & pastors useless or outdated. Its not the same thing.

Azriel, have I answered you questions to your satisfaction?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Your stance that scripture replaces human prophets is what we are discussion, Kings and Priests are an entirly diferent topic, but you already know this. So lets not even make it an issue.

Can you interpret this for us.

Hebrews 1:1,2

1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

YES!!!! Of course!!! Thats a given. Scripture is complete and sufficient for people. Again, that is not even a question for me. Scripture is sufficient for all prophecy, for all teaching, for evangelisim, for all direction.

That does not make prophets, evangelists, teachers & pastors useless or outdated. Its not the same thing.

Ctide, you have again asserted contradictory statements.

On the one hand you say:

"YES!!!! Of course!!! Thats a given. Scripture is complete and sufficient for people. Again, that is not even a question for me. Scripture is sufficient for all prophecy, for all teaching, for evangelisim, for all direction."

Then on the other you say:

"That does not make prophets, evangelists, teachers & pastors useless or outdated. Its not the same thing."

We both agree that evangel., teach., and Rev's, are not void because of the final and perfect revelation of Jesus Christ declared in the scriptures because it is THE SCRIPTS that these three offices use to declare this final revelation(Christ) and use "for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

BUT you have listed prophet as one in this list. The reason why you contradict yourself is because if you need to go outside of scripture for teaching, rebuking etc.... then for you scripture is NOT sufficient.

Sufficient means that its ALL YOU NEED or ENOUGH.

But you Don't believe that Scripture is enough because you have to go outside of it for these actions.

You believe that scripture is useful but not sufficient.


one

[ctide1]

Can you interpret this for us.

Hebrews 1:1,2

1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I do not have to, since at the time of Paul's letter there still were prophets. Therefore you have no argument form that text.

We both agree that evangel., teach., and Rev's, are not void because of the final and perfect revelation of Jesus Christ declared in the scriptures because it is THE SCRIPTS that these three offices use to declare this final revelation(Christ) and use "for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

If teachers pastors and evangelists are only to declare the final revelation of Jesus Christ. What were they supposed to be doing at lets say in 47AD?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Can you interpret this for us.

Hebrews 1:1,2

1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

I do not have to, since at the time of Paul's letter there still were prophets. Therefore you have no argument form that text.

Who said I had an argument here? I just want you to interpret this for us. PLEASE

If teachers pastors and evangelists are only to declare the final revelation of Jesus Christ. What were they supposed to be doing at lets say in 47AD

First of all I never said ONLY.

Second, they were to be declaring the reveletion of Jesus Christ in bit-by bit revelations of Divine inspiration. But then came the Final and complete revelation, Gods Holy Word. ;D

[ctide1]

Na, I'll let you interpret that verse and take your interpretation of it as my own. Fair enough?

Second, they were to be declaring the reveletion of Jesus Christ in bit-by bit revelations of Divine inspiration. But then came the Final and complete revelation, Gods Holy Word.

Hmmm... they were?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Na, I'll let you interpret that verse and take your interpretation of it as my own. Fair enough?

Second, they were to be declaring the reveletion of Jesus Christ in bit-by bit revelations of Divine inspiration. But then came the Final and complete revelation, Gods Holy Word.

Hmmm... they were?

ooooook

[ChristVader]

CTide wrote:

Prophets however, were a vital part of the church according to scripture. Therefore the later can not be grouped with the former two as being fulfilled at the same time. King and Priest, no questions about it. Prophets however still existed by ceasationists own view point at least another 40 years after Jesus returned to heaven.

CTide,

these are good observations. But one point is missing. The Prophets were only in place in all of Scripture for ONE REASON.

They were Gods Legal Emmesaries. They were the Messengers who were in place to tell the Human Kings and the Human Priest where they had violated the Mosaic Law.

All of the NT writters prove this very point. They always START their letters declaring "Grace and Peace". Then they proceed to tell the Shepherds of Isreal how they had Adulterated the Word of God.

In the OT they NEVER started by offering Grace and Peace. Why? Ther was none. Christ had not come.

In the NT Christ had come! Gods Wrath had been satisfied but the Old Form of HUMAN Government was still in place over Covenant Isreal Spiritualy. The Spiritual Mangment team that God had placed over His Bride was still in place. Therefore Gods SYSTEM of communicating with them, The HUMAN PRIEST of Isreal was still in place.

When the Temple fell in 70AD that Managment Team, the Line of Levi was no longer needed! Gift ceased.

Kent

[ChristVader]

I did not mean to leave out the fact that the Prophets in the OT also obviously ministered to the needs of the common folk as well.

You have countless stories of the OT Prophets supplying for the Peoples Physical Needs.

Then per Christ entering the scene their role becomes two fold when they confronted the Common Folk

1. Physical Edification : Elijah raising the dead child
Peter raising the man who fell out of the window


2.Spiritual Edification : Peter says Silver and Gold have I none, but such as I have....
The mandate for Prophets to have an interpreter so that the listeners could be EDIFIED. Listening is a Spiritual EATING = How much MORE will your HEAVENLY FATHER take care of you He say's in contrast to the sparrow's.

It is an OVERLAP Period and the role of Prophets are a HUGE NEED for the "children" of "that Generation".

to say those with the gift of Prophesy were pulling Double Duty during those 40 yrs would be an understatement.

During this time the sons of Levi were NOT providing the Spiritual Shepherding of Gods flock. So that role was having to be taken care of. Then the role of calling out the sin of these Shepherds was certainly back logged
as most of your Prophets didn't last to long with such a wonderful message on their lips! LOL Stephen at least, comes to mind.

This was the end of at least 90% of the Prophets from the time Isreal split into the Northern and Southern tribes. It's a short list of those who survived.

Jehu and John the Revelator. JK I'm sure there are more. Elisha, Elijah, etc. Jezebele certainly gave the Woman of Revelation a run for the money!

[ctide1]

Vader, thanks for joining! I must say, I agree with everything you said.

One thing you implied though I disagree with. When you said: "It is an OVERLAP Period and the role of Prophets are a HUGE NEED for the "children" of "that Generation". The implication here is that the children of "that Generation" where the only one that needed this gift. There is zero scriptural support for that stance.

[ChristVader]

Tide,

What do you understand me to mean when I use the word "children"?

Kent

[ctide1]

I take it that you are refering to the Church, children of God.

[ChristVader]

Yes well sorta.

The reason I use "children" and even put it in parenthasese, is that EVERYTHING about this period of time, is an exact mirror of Isreal in the Wilderness. Isreal caught between Egypt and the Promised Land.

The "Children" of that "Generation"( note Parenthases agian on "Gen"), were the ONLY ones who would get to croos over into the Promised land.

At least 90% of all the Physical Concrete things of Isreal under Moses are Spiritualized by Christ own words and pictures.

Christ is the Rock

Christ is the Water

Moses struck the Rock and Physical Water came out

Followers of the Mosaic system struck "the Rock" and Blood and Water (Spiritual and Physical) came out

Moses brought sufficient Manna for a day

Christ bought bread that would NEVER leave you hungry

Through Red Sea - Through Jordan with John the B

Passover lamb slain with Robes girded - Passover Lamb slain and tells them to Grird their Loins

50 Days after = Pentecoast - 3000 die (under Moses)

Law given on Stone

50 Days after = Pentecoast - 3000 live (under Christ) THAT DAY see Joel per Acts 2

Law written on Heart's

Temple has flame by night

Christ says we are now Temple and we are going into the night when NO MAN worketh(Spiritual if man aint doin it) and at Pentecost they all get FLAMES above their Heads.

See it? Temple- Flame- Night

Acts = Temples- Flames- Night

Moses sister Prophisied

Sister is Proph-ing when Christ is born

Scrips tell us "Sisters" will Proph in THAT DAY

Moses assembles 12 men
Moses assembles 70 men

Moses Gen looked to Serpent on a cross for PHYSICAL healing

Christ tells Pharisees they are of their Father the Devil(serpent)

Then Christ offers SPIRITUAL Healing from the "bite of Eve's Serpent" Satan while hanging on a Cross.

Christ assembles 12 men
Christ assembles 70 men

40 yrs after = Cross Jordan into Promised Land under Joshuah

40 yrs after = Cross Jordan (spiritual) into Promised Land (spiritual)

(David also crosses Jordan at the END of a 40 yr period. Look it up in Samuel) But he is able to WALK across it. With the Ark of Cov. "children" too WALKED across it. So at the Beginning of 40 you have to go through IT[Baptism] but at the END of 40 you have the PRESENCE of God and you just "cross over it". Death where is thy Sting. What do we always say today when we Baptise someone? "We are BURIED with Christ...." Baptism reps Death. Therefore at the end of 40, Where is thy sting. Check Noah and Jonah on this too. It'll blow your mind!)

How do they ENTER Promised Land?

Joshua and Jesus = same word in Hebrew

Under Joshua = 12 spys, 12 tribes, 2 spys, presence of God

Under Jesus = 12 Apost, 12 tribes, 2 wittnesses, presence of God

Take Jericho = 7 days and trumpets
Take World = 7 yrs and Trumpets

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bottom line here is I could go on and on and on with this pattern. When you get to Isaiah he just compunds this evidence by backing up to Genesis and laying ALL of the "Creation Story" over the top of Isreal's History.

He says regarding them coming out of Egypt "The Earth was without form and void". Well heck, that is Genesis 1:1! Isaiah 1:1 Calls Isreal "Heaven and Earth.

Post the book of Job, 90% of your Prophets do the same exact thing. Arguably 100% do it.

Anyways; I just wanted to show what I was talking about when I said "children" and show that I have more than enough Scripture to establish that premis.

What are your thoughts?

Happy 4th!

Kent

[SOLAFIDE]

I kinda got in this arguement a little late but my pastor and I were talking about this topic. Oh and by the way my church is Reformed Baptist lol...

Okay some of you are saying that the gift of prophesy is still intact today. I disagree because if God really gives word to someone, where are they??? Its obvious that if they really recieved new word from God, this someone should and would be on T.V telling it all. And if it really is new word from God, we as Christians would obviously have to be writing Every Single Word down and we would also add it to Scripture.

And the Bible clearly tells us not to add or take away anything from His Word. So if God gave someone new word, they would have to add it, and it would be clearly a contradiction to Scripture.


Now some of you also said that the gift of healing is still intact. I also disagree with this because where is this healer??? Usually people claiming to be healers would attempt to heal someone. When the person is not healed... the healer says that the person did not have enough faith to be healed.

So I say that how about this "healer" go to a Children's Hospital and try to heal a child. He wouldnt be able to say this child did not have enough faith to be healed because even Christ commanded us to have faith like a child. Thats why I dont think this gift is still in operation today.


Lastly some of you think the gift of tongues is still in operation also... I also dont think this is still intact because basically... if it was a gift, why do people try to teach it? If it was a gift, there would be no point in trying ot teach it to others. And also poeple think tongues was this huge spiritual gift when in reality it was a gift but it was used when language barriers were present. They used tongues so that everyone can understand the Gospel when it is being preached. So how about some people who really has this gift go to somewhere like Africa and preach the gospel in tongues and lets see what they would really be telling the people.


Oh and none of you take this too seriously okay... but if anyone claiming to have these gifts, they must not be sleeping either right? They couldnt be sleeping, no time to. Because if God really gave ANYONE these gifts then it would be more of a 24 hours a day job.

And this was a joke. You'll only get it if you really know the story... But if people still have the gift of healing... then are they still picking up snakes today too??? If you dont understand it just ask me and I'll explain.

So overall, I believe the gifts have ceased.

pZ
Smurf

[SOLAFIDE]

Okay everyone I just wanted to come back and say sorry. I realized that a few of us are trying to be dogmatic about this situation and we can't be. If the Scriptures do not clearly state that the gifts are or are not still in operation today, then we can't say that they are or are not without a shadow of a doubt in our minds. So in other words I still go with everything I said above, but that's what I believe, and I wanted to apologize to the site for being dogmatic and pompous about this topic...lol

pZ
Smurf

[ChristVader]

Yeah Smurf,

You have finally enterd into the struggle. Your last post is basically the position of HipHopHead on the Trinity. He says that there are no verses that say verbatim, "God is a Trinity". Therefore, there is a "shodow of a doubt", as you put it.

The Trinitarians come back and say, "well you ought to be able to """SEE""" the Trinity in the Baptism of Christ. And I agree with them. But your point and HipHop's still stand. "It is not EMPHATICALLY stated. You have to submitt to "SEEING" over a literal "Saying".

So then I come along and say, "Yes, lets talk about "SEEING" the obvious in Scripture. For just like you have to "SEE" the Trinity. I ask, "what do you not SEE with the Scripture's EMPHATIC establishment of the number 40.

I have 1000x's the evidence for 40 meaning 40, than the Trinitarian position has evidence for God being a Trinity.

So I ask, "are the Gifts EMPHATICALY tied to a SPECIFIC time period"? I say Yes. Do you have to "SEE" it? No. not at all. It is Emphatic.

Or better said based on your Framing of the Question, "How seriously should we take things that are not EMPHATICALLY STATED" and how seriously should we take the things that are Emphatic?

For both camps obviously have made things that they "SEE" in Scripture, do or die issues. Is this right?

The Orthodox have decided that they can call people who dont "SEE" things in Scripture Heretics. Yet they completely divorce other things that ARE emphatic.

But can the "Gifts today" crowd or the "Oneness" crowd call the Orthodox crowd Heretics because they cannot point to an EMPHATIC verse to support the Trinity, or a verse that says Prophesy is different from Preaching?

Your last two post have certainly shown the struggle that is at hand.

This is really one reason I believe the Orthodox have tried to bring the Creeds to bear on certain issues. lol. The Baptist have laughed at that game until the past couple of hundred years. The War of Northern Agression put the nail in their coffin for the most part. The final blow was Public Education combined with the Scofield Bible.

I think this is exactly why John says in Revelation, "let the reader 'UNDERSTAND'". He didn't say, "let the reader find 'EMPHATIC' verses. Isreal had had EMPHATIC verses and they had turned them into a System of Death. See Romans.

Emphatic verses do not lead folks to live by faith. They, Emphatics, lead people to live according to litteral wooden parameters. Remember the Pharasies getting upset at the Apostles for eating on the Sabath?

God wants us to be fluid according to our heart as it "understands" His Word. His Word alone has to be our guide in all things.

When any Church, any Denomination, or any Preacher becomes our guide, then we have virtually re-instituted the Levitical System.

Are we to listen and contemplate what these groups or individual's have said or are saying? ABSOLUTLY!!! But they should never hold the sway. Period.

Study on Smurf.

[SOLAFIDE]

Hey ChristVader have you read Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur?

pZ
SMURF

[DoGMaTiX]

smurf4christ said:

Hey ChristVader have you read Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur?

pZ
SMURF

I have its a classic.

[SOLAFIDE]

Cool im beginning to read it now

[ChristVader]

Hey Smurf,

Yeah I have read it. It has really been used by God to open the minds of people to the truths of Scripture. Johnny Mc has certainly been used by God no doubt!

You'll learn alot from the book! Enjoy!

Kent

[SOLAFIDE]

Okay cool... My day and Pastor says I'll learn alot from it!

pZ
SMURF