Are all the gift's still in operation today?

[the answer]

Or have they ceased?

chea

[Azriel]

Funny you ask that...because I was just presented last week with a "charismatic" calvinist/reformed church....

I personally believe they are in operation today..but only in accordance with scripture...and not all of the "wacky" emulations that I see a lot of...

but only God can judge the persons heart...

but I do believe they are still in operation...biblical operation....cuz the Lord has used me to give prophetic words that have come to pass, he's given me on occassion a word of knowledge to people (without me having knowledge of the situation), and also, I've been blessed with tounges....(not the gift) but the allowance of God the Holy Spirit to speak thru me during prayer....

mad love,

Az

[king neb]

Azriel,

for what it's worth i believe the gifts you speak of ceased at the coming of Christ in 70 ad. The gifts were given during a special time of trial, Israel's 'last days' of the Old Covenant, in which that generation was fleeing 'Egypt' and 'soon' to enter the Promised inheritance, eternal life.

Those gifts served their function of maturing the 'one new man' and are no longer needed.

The New Covenant has completed it's transformation from the 'old', and 'Faith' is left as the mark of a mature Church.

1 Corinthians 13:9 - 14:1 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We NOW see Christ 'face to face' - the 'revelation of Jesus Christ' has been made and we are longer 'children'.

To go back to the 'gifts' is to go back to the diapers that Israel waddled in under the First Covenant.

[Azriel]

kingneb said:

Azriel,

for what it's worth i believe the gifts you speak of ceased at the coming of Christ in 70 ad. The gifts were given during a special time of trial, Israel's 'last days' of the Old Covenant, in which that generation was fleeing 'Egypt' and 'soon' to enter the Promised inheritance, eternal life.

Those gifts served their function of maturing the 'one new man' and are no longer needed.

The New Covenant has completed it's transformation from the 'old', and 'Faith' is left as the mark of a mature Church.

1 Corinthians 13:9 - 14:1 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

We NOW see Christ 'face to face' - the 'revelation of Jesus Christ' has been made and we are longer 'children'.

To go back to the 'gifts' is to go back to the diapers that Israel waddled in under the First Covenant.

word....I feel where ya coming from...but I want you to check out this article this brother wrote concerning the Gifts of the Spirit in operation of today.....btw he's reformed....and hold to the fact that scripture shows they are in operation today.....the article link is below:


www.mslick.com/gifts.htm

[DoGMaTiX]

Matt Slick's exegisis on 1 Cor. 13 is faulty and interpretated by his false premise of what "face to face" means according to the context.

[king neb]

Azriel,

Thanks for the link. I printed it out and promise to read it today and respond. peace.

[OrthodoX]

Good posts brothers. Very encouraging...lets keep up the godly convo.

Neb-

I agree that the gifts ceased with the destruction of the temple, but i am not sure what you mean by your interpretation of us seeing Christ face to face...could you elaborate on that for me?

consistent

[DoGMaTiX]

Yeah!!

Lets get this one poppin!!!

Ctide where you at??!!!

;D

[HIPHOPHEAD]

hmmm, interesting discussion. one question, with what scripture do people rationalize that the gifts have ceased? I always wondered.

[ctide1]

Let me quote one of my scholarly homeboys... (so I can buy some time to get my ducks in a row)

I would like to comment on two points:



1. In terms of cessationist claims that they come to there position through the teaching of the Scripture. This claim is true on one level, but not on another. They do not claim (usually) that the clear teaching of Scripture is cessationism, but instead say that the Bible implies or infers cessationism. Basically the point is this, there are some things we know are true from the clear assertion of Scripture. We know Joseph took Mary and Jesus to Egypt for a period of time because the gospels clearly say it. There are other things that we know with some reasonably certainty, not because of the clear teaching of scripture but because of inferences. This would include the fact that we believe that Luke wrote Luke and Acts (would you believe no where in the Bible does it say that Luke wrote the book of Luke!), and other things like the purpose of Paul’s letters. We can infer what heresy Paul is combating by the points he is making. In certain instances exegeting Scripture using inferences is a valid method.

But some Cessationist will say that the Bible clearly teaches that Apostles and Prophets and healing etc. have passed away, when really all they are saying is that if we read a passage in a certain light, that it seems that the Bible teaches or implies that. This is seen in the numerous different reasons Cessationists give for the cessation of healing. Some say that the “perfect” of 1 Cor 13 is the closing of the canon of Scripture, others will say healing was simply to confirm the original apostles as Christ’s messengers. Norman Geisler, the well known apologetic, believes that the gifts of healing were fading out during the life of Paul, and that this is why he left Trophimus sick at Miletus (2 Tim 4:20). And there are several other theories as well. The varied amount of theories in itself shows how cautious one must be when gaining doctrine from inferences and not the clear assertion of Scripture. Jack Deere has an excellent section on this topic in his book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, it is very well done and scholarly but not too overly technical. It is also of note that the great “pre-trib rapture” is a doctrine that comes from inference. Even the best pre-trib scholars will admit this.



2. Specifically in terms of what Paul means in 1 Cor 14:1 where he says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. I was reading through 1 Cor one time, and when I got to that verse I was really struck by the fact that it appeared tha Paul was speaking specifically of congregational/community wide prophetic exhortations. This seemed to be the case from following Paul’s flow of thought from chapters 12-14. I picked up a commentary by Gordon Fee (knowing that he being a Pentecostal, would not view this verse through a cessationist veil), and he confirmed what I had thought and then added to it. He mentioned the fact that even though “personal prophetic ministry” is very popular these days, that nothing of the sort is found in any of Paul’s letters. This is not to say that personal prophetic ministry is wrong or illegitimate (I have practiced it and readily receive it), but it is to say that "personal prophecy" is not what Paul thinks of first when he says ”prophecy”. And most likely in my estimation, most of what we call prophecy is not true prophecy but is word’s of wisdom and words of knowledge. I am not trying to be overly technical and categorical, but I do believe this to be the teaching of Scripture. So in conclusion I believe that the emphasis of NT prophecy is congregations words for the edification, direction, and if necessary rebuke of the body. This is not to diminish or eliminate other forms of prophecy, but to say that they are not primamy in Paul's mind.

(c) Brandon Paul

[ctide1]

My old argument, yet still nobody has refuted my points.

If prophecy has ceased, so has the gift od teaching & preaching.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

My old argument, yet still nobody has refuted my points.

If phophecy has ceased, so has the gift od teaching & preaching.

Com'on Ctide, i been answered that.

There are not the SAME offices.

[ctide1]

ok, lets keep it simple

why has the gift of prophecy ceased? what or when did it?

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

My old argument, yet still nobody has refuted my points.

If prophecy has ceased, so has the gift od teaching & preaching.

First here is a question. A yes or No would suffice.

In the NT, were the offices of Teacher and Preacher as gifts direct REVELATIONAL Gifts?

[ctide1]

No, the gifts of teacher and precher were not direct revelational gifts. That is obvious.

[ctide1]

Now, please answer my question.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Now, please answer my question.

Hold on now kid!! ;D

I'm not done. This is my territory you gotta answer my questions LOL hahahhahaha


What about the gift of prophesy, the gift of knowledge and the gift of tongues, were they revelational in nature?

[HIPHOPHEAD]

dogmatix said:

Hold on now kid!! ;D

I'm not done. This is my territory you gotta answer my questions LOL hahahhahaha

[DoGMaTiX]

hiphophead said:

dogmatix said:

Hold on now kid!! ;D

I'm not done. This is my territory you gotta answer my questions LOL hahahhahaha

You guys know I was kidding, right?

[HIPHOPHEAD]

dogmatix said:

hiphophead said:

You guys know I was kidding, right?

lol. that may be a better question for c-tide only. i was just clownin