Are all the gift's still in operation today?

[ctide1]

Yes, prophecy, tounges, interpretation are direct revelational gifts.

No doubt!

Of course I know you were clowning!!!!

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Yes, prophecy, tounges, interpretation are direct revelational gifts.

No doubt!

Of course I know you were clowning!!!!

Good. So then your argument does not stand because your are speaking of different roles and gifts which are not the same in nature.

1 Cor. 13 specifically list all three REVELATIONAL gifts and says they would cease with the completion of revelation given to us in the Scripts. To equate the "teacher" and "pastor" gift with these in 1 Cor. 13 is erroneous.

[ctide1]

"Cor. 13 specifically list all three REVELATIONAL gifts and says they would cease with the completion of revelation given to us in the Scripts. To equate the "teacher" and "pastor" gift with these in 1 Cor. 13 is erroneous."

1 Cor 13 does NOT say they would cease with the completion of revelation given to us in the Scripts.

Rather 1 Cor 13 says they would cease with the perfect coming.

Now, the perfect is clearly NOT the complete Scripts. Lets read what 1 Cor says

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Neither You, nor me know fully, it a silly claim to make. If we did, we would not even be having this discussion.

In heaven however we will know fully all things!!! And the Scripts CAN'T be the perfect, for in fact they to shall pass away at the coming of the perfect.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

1 Cor 13 does NOT say they would cease with the completion of revelation given to us in the Scripts.

Rather 1 Cor 13 says they would cease with the perfect coming.

Now, the perfect is clearly NOT the complete Scripts. Lets read what 1 Cor says

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

The greek word use here for "perfect" is "to telion" which means the "completed thing". So when the "completed thing" comes the partial thing will disappear.

Now what is this partial thing that completed thing that is being compared here? Its not heaven, can't be Jesus, because we are not in partial heaven or have a partial Jesus. The context of this exegisis screams that what is being compared here is partial revelation to complete revelation.

right?

[ctide1]

No, not right. You misunderstand me when I say the perfect or completed thing referes to heaven. And perhaps I mislead you.

When I speak of the perfect refering to heaven, I am not saying the actually place of heaven, rather our state of understanding and sinlessness (or perfection/completion).

Now, we see in part. In heaven we shall see fully. In this world, this incomplete world, this temporary life we only know God and understand him, understand ourself, understand life IN PART. We have partially glorified. Our spirits have been reborn. We are a new creation. YET, we have not received our heavenly bodies, our secret names on the white stones, ect.... In heaven ALL of this will be completed/ perfected.

"12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

Now WE still do not see face to face with God, life, heaven, perfection, glory, we still only know in part the mystery, THEN we shall see face to face & be fully know. How can you argue that there is no more completion to be done between this life and the next?

[ctide1]

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Scripts wont be needed in heaven. THEY WILL disapear once EVERYTHING is accomplished/completed/perfected/ (make your choise).

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

No, not right. You misunderstand me when I say the perfect or completed thing referes to heaven. And perhaps I mislead you.

When I speak of the perfect refering to heaven, I am not saying the actually place of heaven, rather our state of understanding and sinlessness (or perfection/completion).

Now, we see in part. In heaven we shall see fully. In this world, this incomplete world, this temporary life we only know God and understand him, understand ourself, understand life IN PART. We have partially glorified. Our spirits have been reborn. We are a new creation. YET, we have not received our heavenly bodies, our secret names on the white stones, ect.... In heaven ALL of this will be completed/ perfected.

Again you start with a wrong premise of what the context calls for. It is not contrasting between PARTIAL knowledge and FUL/COMPLETE knowledge.

If it were then you would be right but fortunatley its not. ;D

My study of this passage leads me to understand the 1 Cor 13 passage as pointing to the providential completion of the New Testatment as that which rendered the reveletory gifts of prophecy, tongues and special knowledge as not active anymore.

As we read this passage we agree that 1 Cor. 13:9 speaks of these reveletory gifts as piecmeal. They are by the very nature of the case, fragmented and incomplete revelations "we know in part, and we prophecy in part". What is being taught here is simply this:

During the age betweeen Pentecost and the completion of the cannon/revelation, God has gifted certain believers in various Churches with these revelatory gifts to teach and instruct its members. But during those times those gifts were sporadic in that they gave a revelation here and one there, an epistle here , a gospel there, but did not give a total, complete NT revelatory picture to any one hearer or Church. The various prophetic revelations gave at best partial insight into the will of God for the Church, while in process of revelation.

But verse 10 speaks of something that was coming, which would contrast with the piecmeal, bit by bit revelation of that age. That which was to replace the partial and do away with it was something designated as the "perfect" "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away". It is difficult to miss the antithetic parallel between the "partial" thing and the "perfect" (complete, mature, full) thing.

Now let the reader note then that since the "partial" speaks of prophecy and other modes of revelational insight (tongues, special knowledge), then it would seem that the "perfect" which would supplant these, represents the perfect and final revelation in NT scripture. compare to James 1:22


Can't we see the fact that modes of revelation are being purposely contrasted

In other words, there is coming a time when will occur the completion of the revelatory process of God.

Therefore scripture makes the man of God completely equipped to all the the tasks before him(2 Tim 3:16-17)

This interpretation of the piecemeal revelations and the perfect complete revelation continues in the following verses.

In verse 11 Paul is illustrating this point by analogy of his own physical growth: "when I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason, as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things".

Notice the contrast.

[ctide1]

dogmatix said:

Again you start with a wrong premise of what the context calls for. It is not contrasting between PARTIAL knowledge and FUL/COMPLETE knowledge.

If it were then you would be right but fortunatley its not. ;D

"Now we know in part..." No need to comment.

dogmatix said:

My study of this passage leads me to understand the 1 Cor 13 passage as pointing to the providential completion of the New Testatment as that which rendered the reveletory gifts of prophecy, tongues and special knowledge as not active anymore.

As we read this passage we agree that 1 Cor. 13:9 speaks of these reveletory gifts as piecmeal. They are by the very nature of the case, fragmented and incomplete revelations "we know in part, and we prophecy in part". What is being taught here is simply this:

During the age betweeen Pentecost and the completion of the cannon/revelation, God has gifted certain believers in various Churches with these revelatory gifts to teach and instruct its members. But during those times those gifts were sporadic in that they gave a revelation here and one there, an epistle here , a gospel there, but did not give a total, complete NT revelatory picture to any one hearer or Church. The various prophetic revelations gave at best partial insight into the will of God for the Church, while in process of revelation.

Yes and no, you see while NT prophets spoke and gave revelation, they did not however write scripture. If the prophecies, tounges, and knowledge that Paul was speaking of was refering to the scriptural revelation such as the OT Prophets or John's Revelation from Jesus Christ you would be correct because the scriptures are complete. This however would still not support ceasation of non-scriptural prophecy. Paul is giving instruction on the order of non-scriptural/ congregational prophecy such as King Saul and the school of prophets (1 Sam 10), the Church of Corinth (1 Cor 13), the daughters of Philip (Acts 21), ect. Reading on to 1 Cor 14 makes it evident that Paul is NOT speaking on scriptural revelation.

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues....

Now, I have shown that Paul was clearly not refering to scriptural prophecy, therefore the ceasing of Scriptural revelation as stated by John in Rev 21 is irrelevant to this issue. Let us move on.

You still have no explaination to the words of Jesus in which he implies that the revelation of scripture with pass away at the completion of all thing. Making the scripture itself an impossible candidate of "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13.

dogmatix said:

But verse 10 speaks of something that was coming, which would contrast with the piecmeal, bit by bit revelation of that age. That which was to replace the partial and do away with it was something designated as the "perfect" "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away". It is difficult to miss the antithetic parallel between the "partial" thing and the "perfect" (complete, mature, full) thing.

dogmatix said:

Just as our salvation is nearer then ever. Just as we are being saved from this world. Our christian walk is exactly the baby stages of our eternal destiny. Scripture is full of such language. All the more evidence to show "the perfect" or completion is reffering to our state of glory in heaven.

dogmatix said:

Now let the reader note then that since the "partial" speaks of prophecy and other modes of revelational insight (tongues, special knowledge), then it would seem that the "perfect" which would supplant these, represents the perfect and final revelation in NT scripture.

No, the partial is our revelation into what we shall have in the future, in which we will not need any revelation of, because we will behold it face to face. Before my child was born, I had an ultrasound to hold at and see what the lil' champ looked like. Of course this by no means was a perfect view or revelation of his actual beauty, yet it still reflectect his character and personality. The ultrasound however was useless to me one he was born because I was then able to see him face to face. Now, does my story say that the ultrasound was replaced with a kodak photo simply because the ultrasound was a picture of him, therefore a picture must have been the replacement? No. Niether is Paul saying what you claim. Our revelation of we have of God will be replaced with God, not a better revelation. We shall see face to face, not will a better mirror.

[DoGMaTiX]

You performed a bunch of hermeneutical gymnastics that i will expose tommorrow.

but real quick though.

"we know in part" and you get knowledge only? knowledge of what?

[ctide1]

Knowledge of whatever prophecy & tounges & knowledge reveals. Knowledge of what scripture shows us. Knowledge of God. Scripture is the full word for humans to search and understand God in this life, yet it is not a comprehensive book on God. In this life we cannot see his face, or know him face to face in this life. (Ex 33 "20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.")

I am not twisting anything. It's very clear what I say. In fact, arguing this point is rather effortless for me, not because of you or me, but because what I speak is clearly laid out in scripture.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Yes and no, you see while NT prophets spoke and gave revelation, they did not however write scripture. If the prophecies, tounges, and knowledge that Paul was speaking of was refering to the scriptural revelation such as the OT Prophets or John's Revelation from Jesus Christ you would be correct because the scriptures are complete. This however would still not support ceasation of non-scriptural prophecy. Paul is giving instruction on the order of non-scriptural/ congregational prophecy such as King Saul and the school of prophets (1 Sam 10), the Church of Corinth (1 Cor 13), the daughters of Philip (Acts 21), ect. Reading on to 1 Cor 14 makes it evident that Paul is NOT speaking on scriptural revelation.

Ctide my brother in the Lord, you have built yourself a strawman and proceeded to tear it down. Where in my post or position do you get "scriptural revelation" from? Who said they were given "scriptural revelation"? Scriptural revelation was given only to those designated to write scripture, I am sure we can both agree with that. There were OT prophets that never wrote anything.

Whats in view again is just Divine revelatory messages to the people. see above post for more explanation which you really didn't deal with, cause you rebuddled an view that doesn't exist in the reformed view.


Really all I have to do to respond to this post of yours is to repost my lengthy post above.

Now, I have shown that Paul was clearly not refering to scriptural prophecy, therefore the ceasing of Scriptural revelation as stated by John in Rev 21 is irrelevant to this issue. Let us move on.

Your absolutely right, LOL. Cause that is not even the issue. I think your whole post is irrelevant because it does not deal with my post at all.

Note: READERS PLEASE TAKE NOT OF THAT FACT.

You still have no explaination to the words of Jesus in which he implies that the revelation of scripture with pass away at the completion of all thing. Making the scripture itself an impossible candidate of "the perfect" in 1 Cor 13.

You are refering to Matt. 5:17-18 which reads:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

This has absolutely nothing to do with the continuation of scripture my friend. Again you have taken a passage out of context.

Christ is clearly saying that He came not to abolish the Law but to fullfil it through His earthly ministry to be that perfect sacrifice for sin on the cross. His obvious message here is referring to the OT Law and OT PROPHETS. What is this everything to be accomplished? Well lets look at the context. Its the accomplishment of the righteous requirments of the Law and the fullfilment of the OT prophesies of the Messiah. But that was already fullfilled in Christ. This has NOTHING to do with NT scriptures in the way you want it to be. Not one JOT or TITTLE of the OT Law and OT prophesies will fail because Christ came to fullfill them.

So you can put that one back on your shelf. ;D jk

Just as our salvation is nearer then ever. Just as we are being saved from this world. Our christian walk is exactly the baby stages of our eternal destiny. Scripture is full of such language. All the more evidence to show "the perfect" or completion is reffering to our state of glory in heaven.

Again, bad exegesis on the context.

No, the partial is our revelation into what we shall have in the future, in which we will not need any revelation of, because we will behold it face to face.

Let the readers note that Ctide has contradicted himself here.

Here he says that the partial is referring to what we will have in the future. But in his last post he said

"Knowledge of whatever prophecy & tounges & knowledge reveals. Knowledge of what scripture shows us. "

So if we follow this logically then Ctide would have us believe that all scripture shows us is all in the future all prophetic with no teachings.

but we know and He knows that not true.

Now lets us your own metaphor.

"Before my child was born, I had an ultrasound to hold at and see what the lil' champ looked like. Of course this by no means was a perfect view or revelation of his actual beauty, yet it still reflectect his character and personality. The ultrasound however was useless to me one he was born because I was then able to see him face to face."

Right! the gifts are useless because we see our condition as God sees it in the scripts.

[ctide1]

Ok, good we agree that Paul is not talking about scriptural prophecy. Good, forgive me for setting up that strawman. It was not intended to falsely represent your argument, but rather explain that scripture, (partilal or complete) is NOT in question when Paul is writing to Corinth.

Because of that, it is rediculous to assume he is refer to scripture as the perfect that is coming. That is totally subject to your personal theology. There is no strawman in my argument, I was overly explaining that the revelation of the church prophets is completely a separate issue then the scriptures and the revelation found in them. Just as the TEACHING of the Probverbs is scriptural TEACHING (not prophecy) is completely DIFFERENT then your math teacher or a marrage counciler, or bible teacher. They are all dependant on scripture, but are a seperate item. Complete scriptural revelation does not void the role of prophetic revelation in the church. That is my point, that is what you are not grasping. 1 Cor 13 is talking about PROPHETIC REVELATION from God's heart needed in this life & FACE TO FACE relationship with God throughout eternity. NOT Scripture, either at the begining or the end.

The scriptures are NEVER in question.

[ctide1]

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is talking about both. And clearly the scripts came as a result of mans sin, the reason the law was made... the reason Jesus came, the reason we need a partial revelation. Obviously Jesus is refering to his death on the cross, but there still mroe to it then just that. But for now, for your sake, and to keep preterists off this topic... I'll leave it alone.

[ctide1]

Rick, we still don't see ourself perfectly, or as God sees us, that is another false claim. Yet in heaven we will see and know ourself as God does. Right not it is most def still as a poor relection. I do not see any contradiction in my argument.

[Azriel]

C-Tide,

grace and peace fam...I'd like to humbly jump in on this topic and make my transistion from Observer to participant.


I have a question for you....

Does Isreal or the Church have the need for a High Priest, King or Prophet today?


And in your original post you quoted one of your boys that said " So in conclusion I believe that the emphasis of NT prophecy [in] congregations words for the edifaction, direction and if necessary, rebuke of the body"


If you hold to this, as I believe you stated you did...how would you explain Scriptures role in 2 Tim. 3:16, that states that it is Scriptures office to do the above?

mad love,

Az

[ctide1]

Azriel, I do not believe we need any other king or highpriest besides Jesus. And neither did the church. The role of King and High Priest was already permanantly fulfilled by Jesus when he ripped the veil in half and rose from the dead. Yet we still see the role of the prophet continuing on in the NT church. Therefore, I believe we cannot say Jesus fulfilled the role of the prophet to the extent that no other man will prophecy after him. This is clear. RAther, a cessationist would argue that scripture replaced or fulfilled the role of a prophet in a similar manner to how Jesus replace and fulfilled earthly high priests and kings. Of course, Jesus' role couldn't have been laid out any clearer in the bible from Gen to Rev. Yet the ending of the role of prophet is not there (from what I believe) or very hard to depict (from what ceas-peeps believe).

---

Now, my friend wrote that article, not me, but I will answer as to what I believe.

Reguarding 2 Tim 3:16-17 which states

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I would have to state that scripture is the final authority on rebuking a man, correcting a man & teaching a man, all of which MUST be part of a heathly church. So, if you believe men can teach, then you should not object to a man edifing, rebuking, ect... a ceasationist problem is with the prophet hearing directly from God, not with his particular actions per say.

[ctide1]

btw: you are very welcome to participate... glad to have you asking some questions, and I hope my answers helped.

[DoGMaTiX]

azriel said:

I have a question for you....

Does Isreal or the Church have the need for a High Priest, King or Prophet today?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but from the question itself I would answer, Most definately.

Christ is King NOW ruling over his spiritual kingdom the Church until all enemies are put under His feet at final consumation at His coming.

He is Also High Priest NOW because he continues to interceed for us to the Father.

He is still Prophet because the Church uses the complete Holy Scripts to declare God's message in which Christ is the Final Revelation to man written for us in the Scripts.

[DoGMaTiX]

ctide1 said:

Reguarding 2 Tim 3:16-17 which states

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I would have to state that scripture is the final authority on rebuking a man, correcting a man & teaching a man, all of which MUST be part of a heathly church. So, if you believe men can teach, then you should not object to a man edifing, rebuking, ect... a ceasationist problem is with the prophet hearing directly from God, not with his particular actions per say.

I think what Azriel is asking is this.

Do you believe Ctide that the scriptures are sufficient in and of Itself to be used for these particular roles in the Church?

I say yes, because I believe in the Sufficiency of Scripture and Sola Scriptura.

How bout you?

[ctide1]

dogmatix said:

azriel said:

I have a question for you....

Does Isreal or the Church have the need for a High Priest, King or Prophet today?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but from the question itself I would answer, Most definately.

Christ is King NOW ruling over his spiritual kingdom the Church until all enemies are put under His feet at final consumation at His coming.

He is Also High Priest NOW because he continues to interceed for us to the Father.

He is still Prophet because the Church uses the complete Holy Scripts to declare God's message in which Christ is the Final Revelation to man written for us in the Scripts.

Christ fulfilled the role of High Priest & King.

He became our ONLY High Priest forever when he tore the curtain between the holy of holies and humanity in half.

He became our ONLY King forever when he rose from the dead with the keys of death and hell in his hands.

It is antichirstian and anti scripture to claim a man is anymore to be a high priest or a king. NOBODY in the NT church was entitled high priest or king. Not an issue.

Prophets however, were a vital part of the church according to scripture. Therefore the later can not be grouped with the former two as being fulfilled at the same time. King and Priest, no questions about it. Prophets however still existed by ceasationists own view point at least another 40 years after Jesus returned to heaven.

Your stance that scripture replaces human prophets is what we are discussion, Kings and Priests are an entirly diferent topic, but you already know this. So lets not even make it an issue.