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Post by Aristotle on Jul 4, 2006 23:26:00 GMT -5
Hey guys, haven't been on here in a while. While talking to some people some time ago, I was told that I have a theological view of a Calvinist. When I was told this, I had no idea what they meant. I've recently read a paper titled, "Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism" This was a very great paper by Dr. Curtis Hutson. I'd like to hear your views on the five points before I post mine. This will be very much appreciated... since I am at a crossroads with free will or predestination and divine election. Help a brotha out... please.
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Post by the answer on Jul 5, 2006 2:07:48 GMT -5
i t hink the five points are biblical...ummm...some are harder to swallow then others, but they are all supported in the scriptures.
what particular one or ones give u issues?
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Post by Aristotle on Jul 5, 2006 12:10:59 GMT -5
To tell you the truth, all of them raises questions.
Total Inability- well what about the prodigal son? He was dead, yet he could make the decision to rise and go to his father. Calvin says a man cannot respond, move, or anything such as that. People in Hell respond, move, and speak. People in Heaven respond, move, and speak. John 5:40 says that man will not come, not man cannot come. Explain this to me please.
Unconditional Election- Calvin says that some are born to life, while others are born to d**nation. This one is really hard to swallow. God throughout the bible sends invitations to come to Christ. The Lord called us to be fishers of men, but wouldn't that be a waste of time if some are d**ned with no way or hope of salvation? John 3:36 proves that men go to heaven because of belief and men who go to hell go because of unbelief.
Limited Atonement- Perhaps the most rediculous point of the five. Many times Christ says he died for all. Some, including my pastor, will say that by "all" and "world" meant the elect. (1 John 2:2- not only for us, but for the whole world.) I believe that Christ's death is sufficient for all but will be efficient only for some, those who believe.
Irresistible Grace- Calvin here meant that man has no part in his choice of Christ or Hell. No where in the bible does the word irresistible come before the word grace. The word irresistible doesn't even sound right in front of grace. Prov. 29:1 points out that men are often reproved but they harden their necks. Here, clearly, man has the ability to either accept or reject. Remember when Christ cried over Jerusalem. He said how often he would have loved to gather his sheep but what? They would not have him.
Perserverance of the Saints- I don't believe in the perserverance of the saints, but I do believe in the preservation of the saints. I don't believe in the perserverance of the saints, but the perserverance of the Savior- Charles Spurgeon. Case of point-- Wine is just as good years later as it was when it was made right? Not because of the wine's perserverance, or efforts to last. But because of its preservation. (Jude 1; 1Thes. 5:23-- preservation, but not perserverance.) The sheep are safe in the hands of the Father not because of their perserverance, but because they are in the Father's hands.
This is why I disagree with the five points of Calvinism. Not because of Curtis Hutson, but because of my own reading and studying of the Word. I've posted Scripture that opposes the five points, so I'd like some to post ones that support it, so I can view both sides equally. Thanks.
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blackcalvinist
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think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 13, 2006 21:41:39 GMT -5
I've seen that pamphlet. He doesn't even define the 5 points right, much less present anything really convincing against them.
How many Calvinist writers have you read ?
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Post by Aristotle on Jul 14, 2006 11:56:32 GMT -5
That depends... writings that support Calvinist views.. many, but writings that discredit it, not many. This was the first actually, and I though that it did bring some nice points and scripture that covers its points. But almost my entire Church is Calvinist so I'm torn in two. I'm just looking for what's right, but I guess it's not that clear all the time is it?
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blackcalvinist
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think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 14, 2006 19:45:11 GMT -5
Like who for example ? What books have you read ?
Whole books, not just pamphlets or articles.
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Post by Aristotle on Jul 15, 2006 10:01:40 GMT -5
Very many pamplets, but I've read books by John MacArthur, and he would never admit it, but he's a Calvinist. I don't believe the book was actually about T.U.L.I.P but it was from that Calvanistic view point. My pastor is supposed to let me borrow a book about it but I don't know the title or author.
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rob
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Post by rob on Jul 18, 2006 10:54:28 GMT -5
Yo Aristotle,
Thanks for bringing this up. I have had my questions about Calvinism too and the points you have brought up are valid to me. I believe one of the points of Calvinism says that we can't loose our salvation and that is one that I definitely don't agree with. I was studying this morning and I found Matthew 8:10-12. This is where Jesus was talking to His followers after the Centurion who wasn't considered "saved" at that time came and asked Jesus to only speak the Word to heal his servant.
In verse 12 Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The only way to get into the kingdom is by repentance. You have to be born-again to enter His Kingdom.
If Calvinism teaches that once you are in the Kingdom you can't loose your salvation because of "spiritual regeneration" it could cause many to have a false confidence that says "no matter what I do I can't loose my salvation if I am truly born-again".
How do you stand on this issue?
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Post by eternal on Jul 18, 2006 11:27:00 GMT -5
I believe begining with the concept of "totaly depraved" on down, TULIP fails to live up to scripture.
A) We are created in God's image and posess the breath of God within us. If we were "exhaustively evil" or "totaly depraved" then that would by implication mean God's image and breath is evil. Can that be so?
Breath of God
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Job 27:3 For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Isaiah 2:22 Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Image of God
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
The human being is not in existence without the presence of God in their life sustaining them. This is true of all Creation. All creation shares in this (6:17; 7:15).
Of man, God says that they die when His Spirit is removed from them:
" Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)
The bible says that this Spirit returns back to God:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Man can not be "totally and exhaustively depraved" when we only exist through our existence in God as Paul says,
Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, `For we also are His children.'
Paul says that every person lives, moves and exists (has their being) in God. Everyone, muslims, athiests, republicans (lol) it doesn't matter. And the scriptures teach that because of this intimacy that already exists, we may "seek God" and "grope for Him and find Him" since "He is not far from each one of us."
This blows apart TULIP all together IMO.
B) The scripture says that obeying God is possible and "not too difficult." If we were exhaustively evil and incapable of doing what the scripture in Dt. 30 says is "not too difficult" and Paul quotes concerning the gospel in Romans 10, that would invalidate the scripture as erronious.
C) The bible commands us to do good and says IF we do this or IF we don't do that, then this or that will happen. A position that holds that humans are incapable of responding to these charges makes futile their very existence, they become an inherent farce.
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Post by the answer on Jul 18, 2006 14:02:30 GMT -5
When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.
Man is in total rebellion against God. I don't think that because they are made in his image that nullifies that point.
What does it mean to be made in the image of God? It certainly doesn't mean we don't sin. So how far do u wanna take it?
Apart from a touch from God man will NEVER seek God for who he is. Oh they may go to church a few times after 9-11, or pick up a "spiritual book", they may even attend church. But only those who have been elected will truly believe, everyone left in their state will not choose God.
B) The scripture says that obeying God is possible and "not too difficult." If we were exhaustively evil and incapable of doing what the scripture in Dt. 30 says is "not too difficult" and Paul quotes concerning the gospel in Romans 10, that would invalidate the scripture as erronious.
Are u saying man follows God on his own, apart from God's hand?
C) The bible commands us to do good and says IF we do this or IF we don't do that, then this or that will happen. A position that holds that humans are incapable of responding to these charges makes futile their very existence, they become an inherent farce.
The context of the passages u have in mind may determine how one would respond to that
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Post by eternal on Jul 18, 2006 16:25:19 GMT -5
Man is in total rebellion against God. I don't think that because they are made in his image that nullifies that point.
What does it mean to be made in the image of God? It certainly doesn't mean we don't sin. So how far do u wanna take it?
Apart from a touch from God man will NEVER seek God for who he is. Oh they may go to church a few times after 9-11, or pick up a "spiritual book", they may even attend church. But only those who have been elected will truly believe, everyone left in their state will not choose God.
God's "touch" is inherrent to the human condition due to being made in His image and His breath continuing to sustain us. God "touching" us is not an outside event. It is within. Jesus tells the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God is "within you."
So yes God's grace always preceeds any "groping" or "seeking" on our part. However, that grace is inherrent to our existence and is always with us.
My point to address your first sentence, is how can an individual be exhaustively depraved in every aspect of who they are, if God's breath helps constitute our identity? Has God's breath also been currupted? Or is it everything BUT God's breath? If that is your answer, then we are still not "totally depraved" since God's breath is a part of the equation in our identity and makeup.
Or are we completely dead? Is God's breath dead within us? Of course not! So that metaphor should not be used to extend a theological thought beyond what it was intended to proclaim.
Amen?!
Are u saying man follows God on his own, apart from God's hand?
No, as I hope you see from above. God's grace enables us to do all things, but this grace is not exclussive to Christians alone.
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Post by the answer on Jul 18, 2006 17:21:33 GMT -5
But I'm sure u would agree ( mabybe not) that God's touch on the heart of believers is different then unbelievers.
I don't think the fact that we are made in God's image negates the fact that we can be depraved sinners. God says things about us that are pretty bad"wicked, evil, murdurers, etc
What do u make of these verses:
Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."
In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh."
Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
John Piper put it this way: Total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
What do u think Paul meant when he says DEAD in trespasses and sin...how do u view it?
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Post by eternal on Jul 18, 2006 18:10:47 GMT -5
But I'm sure u would agree ( mabybe not) that God's touch on the heart of believers is different then unbelievers.
Post belief? Yes. Because we begin cooperating with it. The wind is the same to all people. Will we walk with it to our back or our face? Depending on which way you walk, the wind experience will be different. But the wind is constant for all. Amen.
I don't think the fact that we are made in God's image negates the fact that we can be depraved sinners. God says things about us that are pretty bad"wicked, evil, murdurers, etc
Yes, that is true. But "totally" depraved or "totaly inable" is inconsistent with this truth. Us being being sinners is a different issue.
What do u make of these verses:
Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."
My take is that in the Psalm that Paul got that from, there are those who are distinguished as righteous (14). Among those who were working iniquity against God, this is the assesment offered. I mean, Zacharias along with his wife Elizabeth were said to be "righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord."
It is a general assesment of that person (people), not an exhaustive deffinition of their life. Do you really believe Zacharias was blameless in all the commandments? If you don't, then why would you not agree that the same sort of statements are not in the same fashion when describing sinners?
The bible says that it is not too difficult or out of our reach. Paul says God is not too far from any of us, and all we have to do is grope and reach and seek God, and we can do this because "He is not far from any of us, for in Him we live move and exist."
In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh."
Paul was a Christian when he wrote this and was speaking of his condition as a Christian. How would you articulate it?
Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
It is as vs. 13 says, "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
The contrast has been set up throughout the epistle. It hits the climax in 5:10, and is now described as a mind vs spirit. Man is both. We are currupted and not currupted. The imperishable is just as much a part of who we are as human beings as is the currupted nature of man wrought in sin.
One must also be aware that Paul's discussion of flesh is best articulated along the lines of circumcission, and other Jewish distinctive identifiers. So those who are trying to attain God's favor and grace and remain in His covenant of grace according to these "flesh" identifiers are wrong, as there is no distinction between Jew and Greek (10:12).
John Piper put it this way: Total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
Does Piper acknowledge the biblical fact that the Spirit of God helps constitute the human condition, and how does he account for it if he does?
What do u think Paul meant when he says DEAD in trespasses and sin...how do u view it?
Without salvation, death is our consumation of existence. God will not strive forever with man, remember? So when our bodies return to the ground and the spirit returns to the Lord, will death define us or will life?
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Post by the answer on Jul 18, 2006 18:21:05 GMT -5
I'm going to the giants game (YAY) ...i'll be back to respnd tonight
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 18, 2006 20:47:08 GMT -5
Eternal, nice to see you again.
I would like to just state that all you have done is made mere assertions without any biblical references. And your interpretations to the passages that the Answer gave are brutal.
Your Main point is that Grace indwells all even the non-elect? Is this your premise?
I will continue following your response to these questions.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 18, 2006 21:13:23 GMT -5
Yo Aristotle, Thanks for bringing this up. I have had my questions about Calvinism too and the points you have brought up are valid to me. I believe one of the points of Calvinism says that we can't loose our salvation and that is one that I definitely don't agree with. I was studying this morning and I found Matthew 8:10-12. This is where Jesus was talking to His followers after the Centurion who wasn't considered "saved" at that time came and asked Jesus to only speak the Word to heal his servant. In verse 12 Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The only way to get into the kingdom is by repentance. You have to be born-again to enter His Kingdom. If Calvinism teaches that once you are in the Kingdom you can't loose your salvation because of "spiritual regeneration" it could cause many to have a false confidence that says "no matter what I do I can't loose my salvation if I am truly born-again". How do you stand on this issue? This is a definite Eisegesis, you inserted into the text what it doesn't say. If you read the contex here it is not refering to believers but to the children of Israel aka the children of the Kingdom. We also know that Paul states that not all Israel is Israel meaning that there are children of Israel/Kingdom that will be cut off because they were never circumcised of the heart which is a true Jew, therefore those who will be cut off in this passage are those Jews/son's of kingdom who's faith was based on their works and think of themselves as good(vs 10) in contrast to the Centurion who thought of himself as nothing (vs. 8). The logical conclusion that Rob came to then is false and based on a misunderstanding of who the children of the Kingdom was. This is no proof text for loosing your salvation. |
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Post by eternal on Jul 18, 2006 21:43:24 GMT -5
Eternal, nice to see you again. I would like to just state that all you have done is made mere assertions without any biblical references. I could have sworn I had put biblical refferences throughout that. Perhaps you should read again. And your interpretations to the passages that the Answer gave are brutal. Well, that was stunning. YOu have convinced me (not). Perhaps you would like to demonstrate why, through the scriptures? I never really like those conversations where criticism is the sole means of discussion, I hope you agree. Your Main point is that Grace indwells all even the non-elect? Is this your premise?Um, what I wrote was... and then followed it up with This is what I am saying. I hope also, you were able to notice the "biblical refferences" you apparently missed the first time. Perhaps you would like to answer the questions posed in my response. Then, depending on your answer to those, I will know how to proceed. peace. |
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 19, 2006 6:57:50 GMT -5
Eternal, nice to see you again. I would like to just state that all you have done is made mere assertions without any biblical references. I could have sworn I had put biblical refferences throughout that. Perhaps you should read again. And your interpretations to the passages that the Answer gave are brutal. Well, that was stunning. YOu have convinced me (not). Perhaps you would like to demonstrate why, through the scriptures? I never really like those conversations where criticism is the sole means of discussion, I hope you agree. Your Main point is that Grace indwells all even the non-elect? Is this your premise?Um, what I wrote was... and then followed it up with This is what I am saying. I hope also, you were able to notice the "biblical refferences" you apparently missed the first time. Perhaps you would like to answer the questions posed in my response. Then, depending on your answer to those, I will know how to proceed. peace. So I will take that as a yes in light of this.... "However, that grace is inherrent to our existence and is always with us."I will deal with your post today. Let us stay on topic, in this case Total Inability vs Inherrent Grace |
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Post by eternal on Jul 19, 2006 9:53:28 GMT -5
How about inherrent revelation, or inherrent presence?
That original point was, if God's presence helps constitute our being, how can we be "tottaly deprave?"
I asked a few questions in that vain, that I am eager to read your answer to.
This point cooperates then with the notion that an individual can not recieve Christ without being zapped into salvation first (regeneration), because they are so exhaustively depraved (totally inable).
However, if the individual is not merely flesh alone, but the Spirit of God indwells us, the breath of God is within us, and each are made in the image of the Almighty, how can we be said to be "TOTALY depraved," and "unable" to respond? Is not the eternal glory of God a key aspect to who we as human beings are? Does not this uncurruptable glory of God contribute to our capability as human beings?
Is this why Moses said it was not too difficult, nor out of reach (Dt. 30)? Or why Paul quotes this passage in his discussion on salvation in Romans 10? That it is so close to us, so intimate to us that it is in our mouth, heart...and as Moses says, "so that you can do it."
Does Paul agree with Moses? He quotes him extensively, so does he agree with the capacity within human beings to respond? Or do you find disagreement with the two?
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Post by the answer on Jul 19, 2006 15:58:22 GMT -5
Because we begin cooperating with it. The wind is the same to all people. Will we walk with it to our back or our face? Depending on which way you walk, the wind experience will be different. But the wind is constant for all. Amen.
I think man is born in rebellion. Men always walk away from God not towards him. Those who do begin to approach do so because they are being 'wooed' by God. If God doesn't step in, men would never come to him.
Yes, that is true. But "totally" depraved or "totaly inable" is inconsistent with this truth. Us being being sinners is a different issue.
You agree that only its only if God touches that men believe, but then u don't accept total depravity. Our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total. There is no hope of man on his own submitting to God. therfore its total..unless u believe there is some chance outside of grace.
It is a general assesment of that person (people), not an exhaustive deffinition of their life. Do you really believe Zacharias was blameless in all the commandments? If you don't, then why would you not agree that the same sort of statements are not in the same fashion when describing sinners?
I would agree here slightly. I don't think wicked men do wicked things ALL the time, every minute of the day.
But with God one sin is punishable by eternal punishment, because it is done against a Holy God. They are not in pursuit of God is the point. Their whole life is being lived for themselves. And even if they did some reliegious things they mean nothing without a true conversion. We must be born again.
Paul was a Christian when he wrote this and was speaking of his condition as a Christian. How would you articulate it?
So here is a believer saying nothing is good in his flesh, how much more a non believer who does not have the Spirit?
It is as vs. 13 says, "for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
The contrast has been set up throughout the epistle. It hits the climax in 5:10, and is now described as a mind vs spirit. Man is both. We are currupted and not currupted. The imperishable is just as much a part of who we are as human beings as is the currupted nature of man wrought in sin.
One must also be aware that Paul's discussion of flesh is best articulated along the lines of circumcission, and other Jewish distinctive identifiers. So those who are trying to attain God's favor and grace and remain in His covenant of grace according to these "flesh" identifiers are wrong, as there is no distinction between Jew and Greek (10:12).
The 'good' in man is meaningless. They will burn in hell no matter what, without Christ. Every unsaved person has their mind set on the flesh, therfore they are hostile to God and do not submit to his law. What ever good they do is worth 3,459,888 dollers in monoploy money! Don't let humanity off the hook!
Does Piper acknowledge the biblical fact that the Spirit of God helps constitute the human condition, and how does he account for it if he does?
I don't understand ya point here...can u claify
Without salvation, death is our consumation of existence. God will not strive forever with man, remember? So when our bodies return to the ground and the spirit returns to the Lord, will death define us or will life?
We WERE dead NOW we are alive. Paul links it to how we live our lives. it was our deeds that revealed our spiritual condition ( eph 2)
But when we are made alive our goal is to pursue him and his plan.
If we are not made alive we stay in rebellion.
St. Augustine said 'We are free to do what we like, but we are not free to like what we ought to like'
Man cannot redeem himself therefore his depravity is total.
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