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Post by eternal on Jul 31, 2006 19:40:59 GMT -5
14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath,
15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust. Total depravity does not fall due to this passage. You are making this mean more that it does. In living beings the rûaḥ is their breath, whether of animals (Gen 7:15; Ps 104:25, 29), men (Isa 42:5; Ezk 37:5), or both (Gen 7:22–23); whether inhaled (Jer 2:24) or on the lips (Isa 11:4; cf. Job 9:18; (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (electronic ed.) (Page 836). Chicago: Moody Press) I am not sure I follow the above...Are you suggesting that "His breath" reffers to man and not God? Roldan earlier agreed that it was a refference to the breath of God. Do you disagree with both me and Roldan on this? If so, how come. If you are saying something differently, I apologize. Could you explain a little clearer? Agreed. It is also a PART of us. It doesn't just give us life and bounce. It REMAINS with us until we "expire" as the many passages I cited earlier in this thread details. I agree we are in rebellion. I am struggling with "total" for the same reasons Paul seems to disagree with it in Romans 1, the evidence of God is WITHIN them, for God has made it evident to them. And creation itself testifies to God. Why? Because God is a part of all creation. To see creation to experience creation, is to experience God. Therefore no one is without excuse because every one particpates in/with God at every point of our lives. We abandon Him, yes. But His breath and spirit are still a part of us. This must be dealt with at some point. It is this point I am harping on, because it is the most blatantly objectionable to the doctrine. I agree we are sinners, and are rebelious, etc. I agree that God's grace must be revealed and extended to us. I argue though that God's mere presence presents this extension of grace, and in fact is characterized by that presence. Therefore we all live in it and particpate in it, as God's presence penetrates all of existence, and more importantly His breath and spirit is in every individual. The bible says that God is "in all," and even pagan philosophers "have our being" in God.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 31, 2006 22:00:26 GMT -5
I haven't seen any biblical witness to be satisfied with. You have eisigeted your own foreign interpretation to the texts which has been shown already by Answer, BC, and myself. So the vast array of scriptural witness is unconvincing to you? With plain words such as "His spirit" and "His breath" leaving you uncompelled? lol. What will it take? One can not get any clearer than Job 34:14. Answer has not answered them. Neither has BC. BC has completely missed the point and has tackled an argument I have never made, in case you missed that. You saw the consequences of this plain biblical truth and committed heresy by claiming that God's breath has been marred by sin, and even equated God's breath with mans soul, neglecting the biblical fact that the unsaved have their sould "destroyed in hell." When confronted with these heresies of yours, you went balistic. While very "dogmatic" you have never proved anything. Your posts have been void of scripture and consistency, let alone integrity (as you have multiple times falsely charged me with beliefs I have never stated, and have in fact repeatedly denied). I have shown the plain meaning. That is the bible teaches that every being has God's breath in it (PLEASE DISPUTE THIS) and God's spirit is indeed in every individual. I have shown multiple passages, and NO ONE has ever shown how it is faulty. YOu have made the false charge that both you, answer and BC have, but I challenge you to quote that portion of any of your posts. Please find the quote of any person who showed this to be false. Please? Roldan, lately you have been making a lot of false statements, is everything ok? Plain and simple, you are now lying. There is no getting around it. I didn't want to say it before, and instead give you the benefiet of the doubt. But you can not quote one thing I have ever said that would give ANY ONE the impression that I believe they are identical. Never. Not once have I come close, but instead of consistently shown their distinctiveness. My repeated use of Job 34 shows this if nothing else. That plus my continued rejection of your claims. So if I have never stated what you claim, and in fact have repeatedly rejected what you claim, how is it that you some how magicaly know what I believe deep down underneath what I say/write? Roldan, do you have a problem with admitting fault in your life? Please repent from your sins, God is eager to welcome your humilty, please be reconciled to him and those you have slandered (ie me). peace. You love the strawman. You are in fact doing what you accuse me of, and I find it pretty boring already. BC, Answer? Anybody else see what I see? Or am I lying
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blackcalvinist
New Member
think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
Posts: 11
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Post by blackcalvinist on Aug 1, 2006 0:32:12 GMT -5
"but Roldan, he puts me together so well!!!"
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 9:08:57 GMT -5
You love the strawman. You are in fact doing what you accuse me of, and I find it pretty boring already. BC, Answer? Anybody else see what I see? Or am I lying Where is the strawman? Can you quote it? Please? This is the most ironic claim of the day. You have actualy lied about me multiple times. I have NEVER NEVER NEVER said that GOd's breath and God's spirit is the same thing. In fact I have repeatedly seperated the two, yet you continualy claim otherwise, despite my multiple corrections. How am I building a strawman? You are the one who has INVENTED an argument and have gone against it. THAT is a strawman. Every time you accuse me of believing that God's breath and God's spirit are identical, and then rail against it, THAT is a strawman. Me pointing that out to you, IS NOT a strawman. Is this bizzaro world or what? And I have presented MULTIPLE times the biblical account of God's breath and spirit being in every individual. How many times can I post the same scriptures, only to have you directly ignore them, and just continue to claim that it is untrue? Of course BC is going to stick up for you, he is rarely honest with me. Can EITHER of you point out the strawman please? Or is the accusation enough comfort for you? Do either of you have enough integrity to actualy PROVE your accussations? Please, quote any strawman you found in that post, please. Otherwise, the both of you continue to prove your lack of intellectual integrity not to mention Christian character. peace.
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 9:52:16 GMT -5
What is interesting, is that you both avoid the plain matter of my point. That being, God's spirit and breath are in every individual.
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Job 27:3 For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Isaiah 2:22 Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Genesis 6:17 "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Genesis 7:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
" Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)
Job 34:14"If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 146:3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
----
God's presence is in EVERYTHING, man includded:
God is omnipresent. This is a biblical fact you both have ignored thus far..
God is invisible/spirit: (Col. 1:15; 1 Ti. 1:17; Jn. 4:24)
Psalms 139 discusses the inescabability from God's Beautiful Presence. The author imagines going through all aspects of reality, the muti tier levels as he describes it, yet God's Spirit is at every turn.
1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However not all men have this knowledge
Eph. 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist."
Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.
Coloss 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Clearly, God is "over all and through all and in all." ----------
This is my position I have been promotting this entire thread. I have had to manuever through heresy (God's breath has been marred by sin, and that in fact God's breath is equivalent to man's soul: ROLDAN), and false charges on what I believe, even though I have NEVER stated what was claimed I believe (God's Spirit=God's breath), and then the accusation of me building a "strawman" because I point it out?
The two of you are severely out of order. It seems it doesn't matter how unethical either of you behave, as long as you both agree doctirnaly, you will glance over each others short comings, and work together in deception against me, because we disagree on this theological point?
Will either of you even treat the discussion? Instead of throwing out asinine barbs, and childish retorts, how about you actually tackle the issue? It is right here for ya.
God's presence, articualted as His breath and Spirit help constitute the human condition. This is a biblical fact.
My only argument stands, that if this is true, how can one claim that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."
How can that be true, if God's breath and spirit is a part of who man is?
This is my question, and only the answer has seriously tried to address it. Black Calvinist has ignored and dissed, while Dogmatix created his own heresies (God's breath has been marred by sin and God's breath=man's soul) to alleviate the problem, only to turn around and stop trying all together, and deciding to make false accussations instead.
If the two of you have something intelligent to contribute, please, now is the time to drop science.
peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Aug 1, 2006 10:42:30 GMT -5
while Dogmatix created his own heresies (God's breath has been marred by sin and God's breath=man's soul) to alleviate the problem, only to turn around and stop trying all together, and deciding to make false accussations instead. There's Mr. Scarecrow right there. I have already explained what I meant which you continue to ignore and find this extremely hypocritical. But I suspect you will continue to use these straws, very sad
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 10:54:34 GMT -5
while Dogmatix created his own heresies (God's breath has been marred by sin and God's breath=man's soul) to alleviate the problem, only to turn around and stop trying all together, and deciding to make false accussations instead. There's Mr. Scarecrow right there. I have already explained what I meant which you continue to ignore and find this extremely hypocritical. But I suspect you will continue to use these straws, very sad No, you said there was a scarecrow in the post you quoted. Were you being truthful there or not? Please quote the scarecrow where you said it was, not subsequent to it. Secondly, I guess the irony of that didn't catch on with you? I wrote that to make a point. You are the one who has been making false claims on what I believe, despite my repeated refusal of it. THAT IS A SCARECROW. You claimed I built a scarecrow because I called you out on your deception. What is ironic is that when I say you believe something you have already tried to clarify to the otherwise, you consider it a scarecrow! Does my point now resonate with you? Do you see the irony? Do you see why I wrote that? I did to you what you have been doing to me. What is even worse, is that your fabrication on what I believe is not rooted in ANYTHING I wrote. What I claimed about you is a direct quote, that you later tried to rephrase. Which I am fine with, and have already told you I accept your deffinition. But if you are going to persist in making false claims about me, perhaps the only way to reach you is to do it about you. Do you now see your error? And again, you claimed there was a scarecrow (not the point driven one I made in my last post) in the post you quoted. Please point it out, if you were indeed being honest at the time. Thanks.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Aug 1, 2006 11:19:03 GMT -5
There's Mr. Scarecrow right there. I have already explained what I meant which you continue to ignore and find this extremely hypocritical. But I suspect you will continue to use these straws, very sad No, you said there was a scarecrow in the post you quoted. Were you being truthful there or not? Please quote the scarecrow where you said it was, not subsequent to it. Secondly, I guess the irony of that didn't catch on with you? I wrote that to make a point. You are the one who has been making false claims on what I believe, despite my repeated refusal of it. THAT IS A SCARECROW. You claimed I built a scarecrow because I called you out on your deception. What is ironic is that when I say you believe something you have already tried to clarify to the otherwise, you consider it a scarecrow! Does my point now resonate with you? Do you see the irony? Do you see why I wrote that? I did to you what you have been doing to me. What is even worse, is that your fabrication on what I believe is not rooted in ANYTHING I wrote. What I claimed about you is a direct quote, that you later tried to rephrase. Which I am fine with, and have already told you I accept your deffinition. But if you are going to persist in making false claims about me, perhaps the only way to reach you is to do it about you. Do you now see your error? And again, you claimed there was a scarecrow (not the point driven one I made in my last post) in the post you quoted. Please point it out, if you were indeed being honest at the time. Thanks. righhhhht
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 11:22:26 GMT -5
huh?
What does that mean?
Does that mean you do not wish to quote for me the "straw man" you were reffering to?
Or does it mean you don't understand the point I made about hanging onto false accussations?
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Aug 1, 2006 11:50:38 GMT -5
huh? What does that mean? Does that mean you do not wish to quote for me the "straw man" you were reffering to? Or does it mean you don't understand the point I made about hanging onto false accussations? It can mean whatever makes you feel better about yourself and makes you happy
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 11:51:52 GMT -5
alright, moving on
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Post by eternal on Aug 1, 2006 11:56:20 GMT -5
Would ANYBODY care to deal with the issue I have presented? This biblical challenge to the doctrine of total depravity?
God's presence, articualted as His breath and Spirit help constitute the human condition. This is a biblical fact.
My only argument stands, that if this is true, how can one claim that "everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence."
How can that be true, if God's breath and spirit is a part of who man is?
Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Job 27:3 For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Isaiah 2:22 Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Genesis 6:17 "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
Genesis 7:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life.
" Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)
Job 34:14"If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 146:3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
----
God's presence is in EVERYTHING, man includded:
God is omnipresent. This is a biblical fact you both have ignored thus far..
God is invisible/spirit: (Col. 1:15; 1 Ti. 1:17; Jn. 4:24)
Psalms 139 discusses the inescabability from God's Beautiful Presence. The author imagines going through all aspects of reality, the muti tier levels as he describes it, yet God's Spirit is at every turn.
1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However not all men have this knowledge
Eph. 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist."
Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.
Coloss 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Clearly, God is "over all and through all and in all."
---
Props to answer for actually trying to wrestle with this difficulty. I hope this continues, and that perhaps some of the other readers/board participants may see the value in discussing this, rather than the silliness.
peace.
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Cyple
Full Member
Posts: 131
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Post by Cyple on Aug 1, 2006 16:03:31 GMT -5
eternal,
It is a very interesting argument. I haven't even thought to tackle total depravity from that direction. With the scriptures that you have provided, it seems more than evident that God's breath is in us.
I'll finish this thought later.
Cyple
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Post by the answer on Aug 1, 2006 18:59:13 GMT -5
It is also a PART of us. It doesn't just give us life and bounce. It REMAINS with us until we "expire" as the many passages I cited earlier in this thread details.
I don't understand the significance of saying it "remains with us" If we know having the breath of God in us is what makes us living beings, its redundant to say it remains with us. Where else would it go?
"God is not served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything" (Acts 17:25).
All the scriptures u gave I think amplify this verse, or are saying the same thing this verse is saying.
God gives life, he sustains life, and he takes life.
When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.
His "spirit" the bible repeatedly refers to is some aspect of who He is. GOd Himself is Spirit, not just the person "Holy Ghost," LOL. God in totality is Spirit (Jn. 4:24). The bible says that God is a part of all things existing, I have cited this evidence earlier in this thread. I believe in the biblical doctrine of omnipresence. And specificaly the bible calls what is in us Gods "spirit" and "breath." However one comes to understand those things to mean, one thing is certain, THEY ARE GOD'S and they help constitute who we are.
How does your view of God being in everything differ from pantheism ( i'm asking for clarification)
My biggest issue with your argument is that it doesn't seem to make the impact u think it does. Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakend; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace
This the guy who is suppost to be on your side, he AGREES with total depravity.
u are saying " Man is not totally currupt" ok? what follows from that? For even if that were true, that having God's Breath would make us not totally currupt-- these scripts are still just as true about the human condition.
* Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." * Jeremiah 13:23 : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." * John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." * Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." * Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." * Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." * 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
The fact that God is part of who we are makes no difference when it comes to our natural condition. This is the heart of Total Depravity.
This seems to be more a discussion about what makes us human, rather then total depravity.
R.c says -- Perhaps "radical corruption" is a better term to describe our fallen condition than "total depravity." I am using the word "radical" not so much to mean "extreme," but to lean more heavily on its original meaning. "Radical" comes from the Latin word for "root" or "core." Our problem with sin is that it is rooted in the core of our being. It permeates our hearts. It is because sin is at our core and not merely at the exterior of our lives that the Bible says
I'm not married to the word total. However, what is meant by it is more important.
Other then making us alive, what does the breath of God do in us? Also how does this effect our condition? In other words, if we didn't have His breath we would die...other then that is there any other reason to point to the fact that his breath/spirit is in us.
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Post by jnorm88 on Aug 1, 2006 19:17:28 GMT -5
the never ending debate.
I'll sit this one out. I wanna see how this one will go down.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Aug 1, 2006 19:34:14 GMT -5
eternal, It is a very interesting argument. I haven't even thought to tackle total depravity from that direction. With the scriptures that you have provided, it seems more than evident that God's breath is in us. I'll finish this thought later. Cyple Wow, a wolf leading a sheep into error, Lord intervene!
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Aug 1, 2006 19:35:12 GMT -5
It is also a PART of us. It doesn't just give us life and bounce. It REMAINS with us until we "expire" as the many passages I cited earlier in this thread details.I don't understand the significance of saying it "remains with us" If we know having the breath of God in us is what makes us living beings, its redundant to say it remains with us. Where else would it go? "God is not served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything" (Acts 17:25). All the scriptures u gave I think amplify this verse, or are saying the same thing this verse is saying. God gives life, he sustains life, and he takes life. When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man. His "spirit" the bible repeatedly refers to is some aspect of who He is. GOd Himself is Spirit, not just the person "Holy Ghost," LOL. God in totality is Spirit (Jn. 4:24). The bible says that God is a part of all things existing, I have cited this evidence earlier in this thread. I believe in the biblical doctrine of omnipresence. And specificaly the bible calls what is in us Gods "spirit" and "breath." However one comes to understand those things to mean, one thing is certain, THEY ARE GOD'S and they help constitute who we are. How does your view of God being in everything differ from pantheism ( i'm asking for clarification) My biggest issue with your argument is that it doesn't seem to make the impact u think it does. Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakend; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine graceThis the guy who is suppost to be on your side, he AGREES with total depravity. u are saying " Man is not totally currupt" ok? what follows from that? For even if that were true, that having God's Breath would make us not totally currupt-- these scripts are still just as true about the human condition. * Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." * Jeremiah 13:23 : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." * John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." * Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." * Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." * Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." * 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." The fact that God is part of who we are makes no difference when it comes to our natural condition. This is the heart of Total Depravity. This seems to be more a discussion about what makes us human, rather then total depravity. R.c says -- Perhaps "radical corruption" is a better term to describe our fallen condition than "total depravity." I am using the word "radical" not so much to mean "extreme," but to lean more heavily on its original meaning. "Radical" comes from the Latin word for "root" or "core." Our problem with sin is that it is rooted in the core of our being. It permeates our hearts. It is because sin is at our core and not merely at the exterior of our lives that the Bible saysI'm not married to the word total. However, what is meant by it is more important. Other then making us alive, what does the breath of God do in us? Also how does this effect our condition? In other words, if we didn't have His breath we would die...other then that is there any other reason to point to the fact that his breath/spirit is in us. Great Job Answer! Keep reppin biblical doctrine
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Post by the answer on Aug 1, 2006 22:31:12 GMT -5
It is also a PART of us. It doesn't just give us life and bounce. It REMAINS with us until we "expire" as the many passages I cited earlier in this thread details.I don't understand the significance of saying it "remains with us" If we know having the breath of God in us is what makes us living beings, its redundant to say it remains with us. Where else would it go? "God is not served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything" (Acts 17:25). All the scriptures u gave I think amplify this verse, or are saying the same thing this verse is saying. God gives life, he sustains life, and he takes life. When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man. His "spirit" the bible repeatedly refers to is some aspect of who He is. GOd Himself is Spirit, not just the person "Holy Ghost," LOL. God in totality is Spirit (Jn. 4:24). The bible says that God is a part of all things existing, I have cited this evidence earlier in this thread. I believe in the biblical doctrine of omnipresence. And specificaly the bible calls what is in us Gods "spirit" and "breath." However one comes to understand those things to mean, one thing is certain, THEY ARE GOD'S and they help constitute who we are. How does your view of God being in everything differ from pantheism ( i'm asking for clarification) My biggest issue with your argument is that it doesn't seem to make the impact u think it does. Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakend; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine graceThis the guy who is suppost to be on your side, he AGREES with total depravity. u are saying " Man is not totally currupt" ok? what follows from that? For even if that were true, that having God's Breath would make us not totally currupt-- these scripts are still just as true about the human condition. * Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." * Jeremiah 13:23 : "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." * John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." * Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." * Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." * Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." * 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." The fact that God is part of who we are makes no difference when it comes to our natural condition. This is the heart of Total Depravity. This seems to be more a discussion about what makes us human, rather then total depravity. R.c says -- Perhaps "radical corruption" is a better term to describe our fallen condition than "total depravity." I am using the word "radical" not so much to mean "extreme," but to lean more heavily on its original meaning. "Radical" comes from the Latin word for "root" or "core." Our problem with sin is that it is rooted in the core of our being. It permeates our hearts. It is because sin is at our core and not merely at the exterior of our lives that the Bible saysI'm not married to the word total. However, what is meant by it is more important. Other then making us alive, what does the breath of God do in us? Also how does this effect our condition? In other words, if we didn't have His breath we would die...other then that is there any other reason to point to the fact that his breath/spirit is in us. Great Job Answer! Keep reppin biblical doctrine
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blackcalvinist
New Member
think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
Posts: 11
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Post by blackcalvinist on Aug 2, 2006 0:34:01 GMT -5
*smh*
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Post by eternal on Aug 2, 2006 14:54:38 GMT -5
my thoughts exactly. You refuse to engage biblical truths in order to protect your calvinism. Instead of dealing directly with the bible, you throw condenscending barbs across the internet. You haven't changed at all It is also a PART of us. It doesn't just give us life and bounce. It REMAINS with us until we "expire" as the many passages I cited earlier in this thread details.I don't understand the significance of saying it "remains with us" If we know having the breath of God in us is what makes us living beings, its redundant to say it remains with us. Where else would it go? Exactly my point. Is the breath of God distinct from God? How about the spirit of God? If you believe the breath is distinct from God, do you believe it is not eternal? That the breath was created? If you reject those options, then clearly the breath is not distinct from God, but is in part communicating some aspect of God that thrives within living beings, giving us life as God is life. We were brought into existence, imaging a God who is the deffinition of existence. We share in that breath and particpate in His being, as all the scriptures I posted indicate. It does not leave us, therefore God does not leave us. He is in every individual. Yes, this passage is true. It is biblical. Yes! But no, it does not define the others that I presented. The others go into more detail. So when more details are provided, we can not omit the details and strip them down to be defined by the less detailed. Yes God gives all things life and breath. Yes, but how does God do this? The other passages tell us. They say, Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
" Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)
Job 34:14"If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.etc. Let me explore some of these... Genesis 6:3 > God's Spirit will not strive with men forever? What does that mean? In the context it means that there will be a limit to how long a person may live. The life of any individual is therefore defined by how long God's Spirit strives with them. ALL PEOPLE, not just the saved. Notice that theme continued in Job 34. It says that if HE (God, not man) would gather to HIMSELF (God not man) HIS (God, not man) Spirit and HIS (God, not man) breath, all flesh would perish and return to the dust. The same message is being communicated. While we possess God's spirit and breath, we are alive. But if it were to be recalled, we would die instantly, for only God lives. We are SHARING in His existence and glory. Without His sustaining (Col 1:17) presence that all things consist in, we would die and return to the dust in which we came from, and His spirit would return to God who gave it. In fact, that is exactly what Ecclesiastes 12:7 confirms: "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."Clearly, God's Spirit and Breath "strive" with all flesh until it they die, at which point they retreat from their souls, and the flesh naturaly currupts without it. Pantheism declares that all things ARE God. This is impossible as God is uncreated. Everything else is created, so by deffinition pantheism is untrue. What I teach is literal omnipresence, not lip serviced omnipresence. I am not an arminian. Arminius only has a role in the context of Calvinism, as he came afterwards. Before Calvin there was orthodoxy, and it is from here that I am speaking. As I have suggested to you before, I am attacking one aspect of Total Depravity. The notion that every aspect of man has been tainted by sin. I reject this on biblical grounds for the simple fact that God's breath and God's spirit is as much a part of man as anything else. I believe I have demonstrated this thoroughly in this thread. Agreed. Man is sinful, and has fallen from God's grace. We have pushed into realms not defined by God, and have launched an assault on Him through our sin. We deserve to die. We have betrayed the spirit and breath of God which helps constitute us. We have transgressed the very nature we were created in. And therefore have walked into death, the unexisting, the opposite of God. However God's grace remains with us. He has not pulled out His breath and Spirit and returned us to the dust as He has said He could do in the bible. Rather, He continues to strive with us, holding us together with His presence. If total depravity claims that every aspect of who we are has been tainted by sin, then total depravity is false. You claim that "God is part of who we are" is a "fact." I agree, and it does make a difference. Total Depravity is a false doctrine because "God is a part of who we are." If you feel you can still hold onto other tennets, fine. But I hope you see this aspect of Total Depravity is false, and not supported by scripture. But rather is held onto because it is very much needed to hold together a SYSTEM of IDEAS wrapped up in the acronym, TULIP. While Roldan cosigned your post, I am sure he is unwilling to admit "God is a part of who we are" because if this is true, then Total Depravity crumbles. That means God's revelation is ALWAYS with us, ALWAYS informing us, ALWAYS extended to us. It means that God's grace is INHERENTLY extended to us and "preceeds" our choice towards Him because it is already naturaly a part of us. This is why they refuse to accept this plain biblical teaching, because it destroys the acronym The wording is not what is important, it is the concept behind it, the wording is trying to capture. Language will always change, so none of us should be "married" to it. I hope I have been clear. It is untrue that sin has tainted every aspect of who we are. That is a false doctrine. It is a false teaching. -- PS...THANK YOU answer for being a gentleman and an honest theologian. I am honored to discuss this with you, as you have been the only one to take it seriously and try to answer the questions. Others try to pretend that I just don't like it when people disagree with me. That is a farce, and an adhomenim used to serve their own intrests and betterment. I am told I am wrong all the time, and I am fine with that. But I do not respect when it is not supported by real effort to demonstrate why. I pray Black Calvinist and Roldan will take some time out in prayer and learn a thing or two from you. peace.
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