blackcalvinist
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think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 25, 2006 16:02:56 GMT -5
Black Calvinist, would you like to tackle the issues laid out in this thread challenging the false doctrine of total depravity? If God's breath and Spirit are inherent aspects of our being, then the concept of Total Depravity must take this into consideration. Mistake #1 - God's breath and Spirit is not 'inherent in our being'. Your entire set of errors begins here. God the Holy Spirit gives men life (Psalm 104:30), but this does not mean that His Spirit is a part of the person. Electricity gives 'life' to a TV set, but it is not a part of the TV set. Go back and deal with other things previously posted in this thread, as I have no desire to reinvent the wheel on the doctrine of total depravity. If you have problems understanding what I mean, go to www.reformed.org and look up the Canons of Dordt and how they are outlined there. Look also at the Westminister Confession of Faith and how it deals with the nature of man. Both are located on the site. The language there is plain and unconfusing. A 'discussion' here where some of us may or may not be completely precise in our language solves nothing and only gives you a chance to confuse the issue - intentionally or not - from your misunderstanding of Calvinism. If you're truly concerned about the truth and not just having a long protracted discussion, take a few moments to learn Calvinism accurately. THEN come back to the discussion. That not only goes for you, but every other person in the thread who ain't a Calvinist, has problems with it and the most you've picked up is a pamphlet or something. Let's move beyond another 4 pages of 'back and forth' that leads nowhere and deal with primary source material.
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 25, 2006 18:50:31 GMT -5
Why do u keep inserting "all I have chosen"? That isn't how we take this verse. ALL here is "all sorts of men" Look at the context.
Paul says pray for everyone, then he says for kings and those in authority. Then in Vs4 says God wants "all men" to be saved. In other words, God wants kings and prezidents, and rulers to be saved too, not just the regular folk.
So God wants all sorts of men to be saved. He's saving the nations, not just one type of people.
Because you are saying that all means the elect. All sorts of men does not disprove that he wants all men to be saved. It does not imply just the elect either. It shows that people may show partiality in spreading the Gospel, and that we should not show partiality.
We are born rebellious. We need no help from satan in being bad people. God does in a sense FORCE people to be saved.
Have u ever prayed for someone to get saved? What did u pray? Lord save them, right? Aren't u praying for the Lord to do something? For u that would not be genuine belief cuz God intervened. For u would genuine belief only be if God did nothing?
But there still is a state of deception that people are in. There is no arguing that. Why even have any deception at all? Can Satan not blind the hearer? Don't we learn that from the Parable of the Sower?
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Can we call God a failure here? I would not venture to do that.
13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
What about here? The believe for a while, but when they face a trial it goes away. Is God a failure here?
1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." John 7:1-4
Did they mean show yourself "to every human on the planet"?
Obviously not, the twelve disciples could not show themselves to every person on the planet. The question is does he limit them by saying world? No. When Jesus gives The Great Commission he obviously knows that we cannot talk to person in the world ourselves. God's ability is greater than our ability, so when he says world, I believe the whole world i.e. every person in the world. If not he would have said show yourself to the people near you.
Were the Pharisees saying " look, every human being on earth is going after Jesus"?
No of course not. I believe it is a figure of speech. I don't see how it applies to the passage that I presented. My point is that it is obvious here, it is not obvious in the John 3:16.
God loved the world of people. Whoever in the world wants to be saved, can.
I like this question. I believe non-believers don't want to be saved. That is my whole point. But once God reveals to them their true position and the ultimate consequences of their position, can we not respond?
Let me re pharse my question..Did the apostles ever say to unbelievers "God loves you"?
I don't believe the apostles have ever said that. I don't think that portraying God's love is a necessary element of giving out the Gospel. But does God not love everyone?
Where do u stand our ability to come? Do u say " we can come on our own" or do u say " God has to call us for us to come"?
You have to define come for me.
Not for all. Some will say, "pull it, i don't care" Humanity is in rebellion. THey don't care about God. THy are 1 sec from eternity, and don't care, even when they are warned. We are DEAD spirtually. We cannot respond, unless we are made alive. ( Eph 2)
Like I said, someone that values their life will say pull it. I'm asking about the majority of humanity.
Eph 2 says As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
How do you take this as spiritually dead? We are not spiritually dead, we are just being led by the wrong spirit. We are spiritually alive, just being led by one that will ultimately lead us to death.
It goes on to say Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath
So we were objects of his wrath (if we died in our transgressions).
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
So he flipped the spiritual script on us. He changed us from being objects of wrath to objects of grace.
Yes, I'm saying God makes it impossible for us to choose death. My definition of His saving grace.
Huh? can u expalin that...i don't understand.
I'm saying that God can either inexplicably reveal our condition (in essence giving you a obvious choice, like the example of the gun I gave you earlier) to us or let us go on (still being deserving of wrath) to ultimate spiritual death.
I think I can explain it better this way. When I was saved God showed me that true happiness, true life, and what I was looking for was in Him. He also showed me what would happen if I did not have Him. Was God obligated to do that? No. Was he exercising his grace by doing that? Yes. I did not seek after him to find this out. I did not say to myself that I need to stop this behavior. God was the one solely responsible for opening my eyes to my condition. Now why is it so hard to believe that we can submit to his grace and glory? I have no responsibility in it. I can take no credit for it. There was no good in me. It didn't take good in me to submit to him. I hope this clarifies my position.
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 25, 2006 19:07:12 GMT -5
Read through this..... www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/appendix_03.htm
Context, context, context, my friend.Yes I have read that before. I have a problem with their John 5:24 interpretation. It says that believers will not be "condemned" not judged. As you know, first comes a judgement, then a verdict. Believers verdict will be judged innocent, non-believers, judged guilty. That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"Just because you say something is unequivocally established doesn't mean that it is. How is it established that in 2 Peter 2:5? It doesn't say the world of the ungodly. It says the ancient world with the ungodly in it. This proves my point even further. Because Noah was part of the ancient world also. I could go on, but I don't have time. right now. I really challenge you to prove that the world in John 3:16 is not talking about the whole world.
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Post by the answer on Jul 25, 2006 22:13:04 GMT -5
Because you are saying that all means the elect. All sorts of men does not disprove that he wants all men to be saved. It does not imply just the elect either. It shows that people may show partiality in spreading the Gospel, and that we should not show partiality.
I never said all mean the elect here in this passage. I said it means all sorts of men. Kings, peasants, slaves, princes, and on and on. I'm not saying the passage is " God wants all the elect to be saved", that doesn't make sense.
If Paul meant " all sorts of men" then at least in this passage it doesn't teach what u are putting forth. U gotta go somewhere else.
U are right. We should preach to everyone showing no partiality...All men!
But there still is a state of deception that people are in. There is no arguing that. Why even have any deception at all? Can Satan not blind the hearer? Don't we learn that from the Parable of the Sower?
11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Can we call God a failure here? I would not venture to do that.
13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
What about here? The believe for a while, but when they face a trial it goes away. Is God a failure here?
No God is not a failure. Satan HAS blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see what? 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Yeah people "see" Jesus, but do they see him as glorious? Worth all of their trust? This is what Satan blinds them from. They don't see the worth of Jesus. But the bible is clear that it's not just satan, its US too!
Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
We shall come back to this...
Obviously not, the twelve disciples could not show themselves to every person on the planet. The question is does he limit them by saying world? No. When Jesus gives The Great Commission he obviously knows that we cannot talk to person in the world ourselves. God's ability is greater than our ability, so when he says world, I believe the whole world i.e. every person in the world. If not he would have said show yourself to the people near you.
My simple point is that "world" doesn't always mean "every single human being on the planet" I think u agree with this.
No of course not. I believe it is a figure of speech. I don't see how it applies to the passage that I presented. My point is that it is obvious here, it is not obvious in the John 3:16.
Well here is where u make your argument that John meant every single human being. If it's not obvious, then we have to dig at what he means. This was all I was saying, prove "world" in John 3:16 refers to "every single person"
I believe non-believers don't want to be saved. That is my whole point. But once God reveals to them their true position and the ultimate consequences of their position, can we not respond?
Here I bring in Romans 8:7-8 , "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Depends on what u mean. What do u mean by God "revealing?" People hear the gospel ALL the time, yet they still refuse to believe. Is an invitation a "revealing?"
But does God not love everyone?
Not in the same way...I think His love for us is different then his love for the ungodly.
You have to define come for me.
come=get saved!
How do you take this as spiritually dead? We are not spiritually dead, we are just being led by the wrong spirit. We are spiritually alive, just being led by one that will ultimately lead us to death.
What does the word dead mean then? Physically? To u, being dead means being lead by the wrong spirit?
John Piper put it this way ....Now what does that have to do with being dead? It sounds like we were very much alive and active in our rebellion and disobedience. Indeed we were. But in being alive to disobedience we were dead to obedience. In being alive to rebellion we were dead to submission. In being alive to unbelief we were dead to faith. We had no living spiritual nature to incline us to do anything for the glory of God and in reliance on his power. And lacking that spiritual nature we were dead: dead to righteousness, dead to holiness, dead to obedience, dead to faith.
Spiritually speaking I was dead. Without a Savior I had no spiritual inclinations at all. For there was no spiritual life at all. And therefore I needed a Savior not only to forgive me for my sins, but also to give me spiritual life so that my heart would incline to trust him and obey him.
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blackcalvinist
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 25, 2006 22:55:51 GMT -5
Read through this..... www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/appendix_03.htm
Context, context, context, my friend.Yes I have read that before. I have a problem with their John 5:24 interpretation. It says that believers will not be "condemned" not judged. As you know, first comes a judgement, then a verdict. Believers verdict will be judged innocent, non-believers, judged guilty. What greek word is used for condemnation there ? What does it mean ? that'll help part of your misunderstanding. Short answer - CONTEXT. 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; Read the scripture before you comment, bruh. The scripture defines the limits of 'world' here. 'World of the ungodly' kinda sets it straight.... along with 'did not spare the ancient world'. So Pink's right - this passage DOES speak about the 'ungodly world'. You ever looked at John 3:16 in greek ? It actually defines 'world' for itself there.
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 25, 2006 22:59:32 GMT -5
I never said all mean the elect here in this passage. I said it means all sorts of men. Kings, peasants, slaves, princes, and on and on. I'm not saying the passage is " God wants all the elect to be saved", that doesn't make sense.
If Paul meant " all sorts of men" then at least in this passage it doesn't teach what u are putting forth. U gotta go somewhere else.
U are right. We should preach to everyone showing no partiality...All men!
The argument of all sorts men does not exclude non-believers. Isn't that the basis of what we are talking about?
No God is not a failure. Satan HAS blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see what? 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
So if they see the light of Christ what would happen? Satan must believe that he's succeeding in some way. Let me put it this way do you believe if Satan wasn't involved that more people would be saved?
Yeah people "see" Jesus, but do they see him as glorious? Worth all of their trust? This is what Satan blinds them from. They don't see the worth of Jesus. But the bible is clear that it's not just satan, its US too!
This is what I'm saying. If God makes the decision for us then it would matter if Satan blinded us or not. Satan would be useless.
My simple point is that "world" doesn't always mean "every single human being on the planet" I think u agree with this.
To us it doesn't mean every single human being on the planet. But there is a difference with God. For instance I can say that I am releasing my new CD to the whole world. Of course everyone on the planet is not going to buy it. But I"m still making it available for the whole world. I don't believe I'm a failure if every person doesn't buy it.
Well here is where u make your argument that John meant every single human being. If it's not obvious, then we have to dig at what he means. This was all I was saying, prove "world" in John 3:16 refers to "every single person"
I believe the responsiblity is to prove that it is not to the whole world. See my example above.
Here I bring in Romans 8:7-8 , "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
I agrree with you on this point.
Depends on what u mean. What do u mean by God "revealing?" People hear the gospel ALL the time, yet they still refuse to believe. Is an invitation a "revealing?"
Revealing our condition in such a way that it is irresisitable. I don't believe a mere invitation is a revealing. We talk about seeds being planted and growing so it can be a process. But I believe there is a point when God opens your eyes and you submit. The place where I believe people get confused is the grace of God is so irresistable it seems like he made the submission for us.
Not in the same way...I think His love for us is different then his love for the ungodly.
I agree. I'm sure he loves those differently that do his will.
come=get saved!
I don't believe we have to ablility to save ourselves. Because God set up the sacrifice, criteria, and he does the saving. But I believe that he will not do anything unless we submit to him. We are naturally not ever going to go to God and say okay Lord I submit. So I'm saying God interacts with us during the saving process so that we do submit. It's like Royce Gracie putting an arm bar on you, you will tap out. Unless you're Jesus or something.
What does the word dead mean then? Physically? To u, being dead means being lead by the wrong spirit?
Because the passage says that we are lead by the devil. We have a spirit but it is an evil one. Obviously, at this moment the spirit is alive in non-believers today, right? But what we are talking about is the ultimate manifestation of the spirit in us. The evil spirit bringing death, and the Holy Spirit bringing life.
John Piper put it this way ....Now what does that have to do with being dead? It sounds like we were very much alive and active in our rebellion and disobedience. Indeed we were. But in being alive to disobedience we were dead to obedience. In being alive to rebellion we were dead to submission. In being alive to unbelief we were dead to faith. We had no living spiritual nature to incline us to do anything for the glory of God and in reliance on his power. And lacking that spiritual nature we were dead: dead to righteousness, dead to holiness, dead to obedience, dead to faith.
Spiritually speaking I was dead. Without a Savior I had no spiritual inclinations at all. For there was no spiritual life at all. And therefore I needed a Savior not only to forgive me for my sins, but also to give me spiritual life so that my heart would incline to trust him and obey him.
Can you provide bliblical reference that says we were dead to righteousness?
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 25, 2006 23:22:45 GMT -5
What translation are you reading? The NIV says this: 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; What greek word is used for condemnation there ? What does it mean ?
that'll help part of your misunderstanding.Why don't you help me what word does it use? Read the scripture before you comment, bruh. The scripture defines the limits of 'world' here. 'World of the ungodly' kinda sets it straight.... along with 'did not spare the ancient world'. So Pink's right - this passage DOES speak about the 'ungodly world'.I did that. But I don't understand what translation you are coming from. You ever looked at John 3:16 in greek ? It actually defines 'world' for itself there.I'd be really interested in seeing what word it actually uses. You already said that Kosmos was the word, but we haven't deduced that the Kosmos in this passage means only the "saved" world. Which doesn't make any sense, because why would he want to save those who are already saved. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Why would you have to believe in someone that you already believe in?
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Post by the answer on Jul 25, 2006 23:30:07 GMT -5
The argument of all sorts men does not exclude non-believers. Isn't that the basis of what we are talking about?I thought your point for bringing up the passage was to say that God died for "every human being" I said that this passage doesn't teach that. Rather it teaches he died for all sorts of men. Paul was not making the point that he died for every human being. So, my point is that we shouldn't be trying to use that scripture to prove it. The passage is not excluding anyone...it's speaking about including all sorts of men. Let me put it this way do you believe if Satan wasn't involved that more people would be saved?I don't know. Probably not. But who could know that? If God makes the decision for us then it would matter if Satan blinded us or not. Satan would be useless.I never said God makes the decision for us. Rather he OPENS our hearts to the message and we believe. Satan is involved somehow, but clearly Satan can't stop what God wants to do. I think GOd allows him to continue blinding people. But when God wants to get thru he does! To us it doesn't mean every single human being on the planet. But there is a difference with God. For instance I can say that I am releasing my new CD to the whole world. Of course everyone on the planet is not going to buy it. But I"m still making it available for the whole world. I don't believe I'm a failure if every person doesn't buy it.To us? When God says I hate sin..what does that mean? WHen he says "follow me" what does that mean? We understand him there, but when he uses the word world, it means something different?? I believe the responsiblity is to prove that it is not to the whole world. See my example above.Question: Did God intend to save anyone in particular on the cross? Can you provide bliblical reference that says we were dead to righteousness?What? U think we were alive to it?? 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath
Doesn't sound like we were living for righteousness.
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 26, 2006 0:30:53 GMT -5
The passage is not excluding anyone...it's speaking about including all sorts of men.I'm saying that all sorts of men does include everyone (the whole world). I never said God makes the decision for us. Rather he OPENS our hearts to the message and we believe. Satan is involved somehow, but clearly Satan can't stop what God wants to do. I think GOd allows him to continue blinding people. But when God wants to get thru he does!Okay, but many Calvinists hold to the idea that God makes the decision for us. Question: Did God intend to save anyone in particular on the cross?I believe he knew who would be saved. Did he intend to save myself? I would say yes. Why did he want to save me? I don't know. Why does he not save everyone? I don't now. Doesn't sound like we were living for righteousness. Okay, why would God lay down laws if we were not capable of following them? That is why I would like to see a scripture that specifically says that we are dead to righteousness. I believe we are incapable to the righteousness that God requires.
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Post by the answer on Jul 26, 2006 2:27:24 GMT -5
I'm saying that all sorts of men does include everyone (the whole world).
I'm fine with that, as long as by "whole world" u don't mean "every single individual"
Okay, but many Calvinists hold to the idea that God makes the decision for us.
Hmmmm..can u provide a quote from the calvinist who said that?
I believe he knew who would be saved. Did he intend to save myself? I would say yes. Why did he want to save me? I don't know. Why does he not save everyone? I don't now.
So on the cross, he paid for your sin? He came to actually save u, not to just "open the door" of opportunity? Good!
Particular atonement shows God had a people in mind, specifically, not just a blanket "every single person" But he came to lay down his life for "the sheep"
Okay, why would God lay down laws if we were not capable of following them? That is why I would like to see a scripture that specifically says that we are dead to righteousness. I believe we are incapable to the righteousness that God requires.
Are u talking about believers or non believers?
As unbelievers all we do is sin. Our best actions are sin. We cannot be righteous as non believers.
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 26, 2006 19:42:53 GMT -5
I'm fine with that, as long as by "whole world" u don't mean "every single individual"
So what do you say is the definition of the whole world? All or some? And if some which some?
How do you interpret Romans 10:12-13, 2 Peter 3:8-9, II Cornthians 5:16-19, Mark 16:15-16?
Hmmmm..can u provide a quote from the calvinist who said that?
Being totally depraved makes one wholly unable to respond to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is one definition of total depravity. If we cannot respond, then someone must respond for us correct?
I think we should discuss this also John 6:43-45 and John 17:9
So on the cross, he paid for your sin? He came to actually save u, not to just "open the door" of opportunity? Good!
Particular atonement shows God had a people in mind, specifically, not just a blanket "every single person" But he came to lay down his life for "the sheep"
I DO believe everyone has the opportunity to be saved. I think that only some believe though. I don't want to speculate on why God doesn't overcome their unbelief.
Are u talking about believers or non believers?
As unbelievers all we do is sin. Our best actions are sin. We cannot be righteous as non believers.
I'm talking about non-believers. Are non-believers uncapable of good deeds? They are in a state of sin that will ultimately bring death, but are they incapable of richteous acts? True righteousness I believe all people are uncapable of. As believers we are given righteousness through Jesus. It is not our own.
Do you believe that there are some non-believers that commit less "acts" of sin than believers? I do. We can look at the Pharisees for that.
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blackcalvinist
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think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 26, 2006 22:05:54 GMT -5
What translation are you reading? The NIV says this: 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;Get a word-for-word translation that doesn't do your interpreting for you. NIV's okay for reading, but bad for study. In addition, it leaves out part of the text. Try the ESV or NASB or NKJV. That'll clear up part of your misunderstanding. [/b] Why don't you help me what word does it use?[/quote] I decline here - You need to take time and learn on your own. Soundbyte-answers on a board are not serious study. Since you condemn a belief, yet haven't taken the time to do the exegetical work, it would be wise for you to start here: www.biblestudytools.net and here www.biblegateway.comAfter that, then come back to this part of the discussion. Your interpretation needs to be based off the original text, not a bad translation. Two misunderstandings surface. #1 - I don't believe it says that God only wants to save those who are already saved. #2 - the word 'world' isn't the issue here. It's the rest of John 3:16 that defines what 'world' means here. Go to the Bible Gateway and take a look at the text in Young's Literal Translation. That'll help you get started. This sentence alone shows you don't understand what Calvinists believe. I'm giving you the same advice I gave eternal - stop looking for soundbyte answers on a message board and go read original source material (i.e.- canons of dordt) or full books by reformed authors on the subject. The Sovereignty of Grace by Arthur Custance www.custance.org/Library/SOG/Index.htmlIs one of the best places on the internet to start. And your 'John 3:16' objections are answered there in full. I'm not trying to be snobby about it, but since we're dealing with others' beliefs, you don't have a right to say that Calvinism is 'false' when you can't even get what Calvinists believe right. So the problem is a misunderstanding over on your end - not in Reformed Theology. Take a bit of time and actually read up first before criticizing. Grace and Peace
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Cyple
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Post by Cyple on Jul 27, 2006 5:17:28 GMT -5
Get a word-for-word translation that doesn't do your interpreting for you. NIV's okay for reading, but bad for study. In addition, it leaves out part of the text. Try the ESV or NASB or NKJV.
That'll clear up part of your misunderstanding.Okay I will use your word for word translation. I still come up with the same conclusion. 24`Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.First I will clear up the true misunderstanding. When I was referring to condemnation I was referring more to more of what we call in courts today a conviciton or punishment. That how the word judgement is being used here. It is being defined as rendering a verdict. You can see this by the phrase "he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life." Death here is the punishment. So he is not talking about guilty or innocent, he is talking about punishment or non-punishment. So I agree with you believers will not be punished. But we will be tried. Now is this the same judge that is talked about in Romans 3:6? It does not because it talks about prevailing when you are judged. If you can prevail when being judged you must be a believer. So "judged" in Romans 3:6 must be talking about a trial. I decline here - You need to take time and learn on your own. Soundbyte-answers on a board are not serious study. Since you condemn a belief, yet haven't taken the time to do the exegetical work, it would be wise for you to start here:
www.biblestudytools.net and here www.biblegateway.com
After that, then come back to this part of the discussion. Your interpretation needs to be based off the original text, not a bad translation.First of all I'm not condemning a belief. That would be rendering a judgement. LOL. Second, I finally understand what you are saying. You are saying that the world that he is talking about are believers. Which I now understand. Jesus did not die for non-believers. But, the question is do all have the opportunity to believe? Do all have the opportunity to be included in the world of believers? Now I had to figure this out for myself. You obviously did not understand where I was coming from and I was trying to understand where you were coming from. I'm not going to treat you how you treatedt me and belittle you for not understanding my position. This is why debates on this board usually end in conflict. So I digress to reinterpreting John 3:16, let me know if I am correct. 16for God did so love the (believers), that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17For God did not send His Son to the (earth) that he may judge the (believers), but that (believers) may be saved through him;We are talking details and understanding here. The all men part still applies. So the revised question is: Is anyone one excluded from believing? Romans 10 suggests that all can have the opportunity. 2 Peter 3:9 also suggest that everyone has the opportunity.
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rob
Full Member
Does anyone have an inflatable turkey?
Posts: 136
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Post by rob on Jul 27, 2006 9:03:40 GMT -5
Get a word-for-word translation that doesn't do your interpreting for you. NIV's okay for reading, but bad for study. In addition, it leaves out part of the text. Try the ESV or NASB or NKJV.
That'll clear up part of your misunderstanding.Okay I will use your word for word translation. I still come up with the same conclusion. 24`Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.First I will clear up the true misunderstanding. When I was referring to condemnation I was referring more to more of what we call in courts today a conviciton or punishment. That how the word judgement is being used here. It is being defined as rendering a verdict. You can see this by the phrase "he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life." Death here is the punishment. So he is not talking about guilty or innocent, he is talking about punishment or non-punishment. So I agree with you believers will not be punished. But we will be tried. Now is this the same judge that is talked about in Romans 3:6? It does not because it talks about prevailing when you are judged. If you can prevail when being judged you must be a believer. So "judged" in Romans 3:6 must be talking about a trial. I decline here - You need to take time and learn on your own. Soundbyte-answers on a board are not serious study. Since you condemn a belief, yet haven't taken the time to do the exegetical work, it would be wise for you to start here:
www.biblestudytools.net and here www.biblegateway.com
After that, then come back to this part of the discussion. Your interpretation needs to be based off the original text, not a bad translation.First of all I'm not condemning a belief. That would be rendering a judgement. LOL. Second, I finally understand what you are saying. You are saying that the world that he is talking about are believers. Which I now understand. Jesus did not die for non-believers. But, the question is do all have the opportunity to believe? Do all have the opportunity to be included in the world of believers? Now I had to figure this out for myself. You obviously did not understand where I was coming from and I was trying to understand where you were coming from. I'm not going to treat you how you treatedt me and belittle you for not understanding my position. This is why debates on this board usually end in conflict. So I digress to reinterpreting John 3:16, let me know if I am correct. 16for God did so love the (believers), that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17For God did not send His Son to the (earth) that he may judge the (believers), but that (believers) may be saved through him;We are talking details and understanding here. The all men part still applies. So the revised question is: Is anyone one excluded from believing? Romans 10 suggests that all can have the opportunity. 2 Peter 3:9 also suggest that everyone has the opportunity. Hey BC, Cyple has some of the same questions I have. This along with the "apostacy" issue cause me to question the Calvinism doctrine. I'm just typing this so you can know that I'm following along and studying too.
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Post by eternal on Jul 29, 2006 6:30:11 GMT -5
Mistake #1 - God's breath and Spirit is not 'inherent in our being'.
Your entire set of errors begins here.
God the Holy Spirit gives men life (Psalm 104:30), but this does not mean that His Spirit is a part of the person.
Electricity gives 'life' to a TV set, but it is not a part of the TV set.Black Calvinist, your commitment to calvinism is outwieghed by the authority of scripture. You denial of biblical claims without even attempting to deal with them is worrisome. The passages I have outlined are not merely discussions on "spirit gives men life" but rather the fact that God's spirit IS IN every person. Perhaps you would like to deal with the passages already presented in this thread? Such an important issue, I would think you'd be more careful in your treatment of it, and not just spout shallow disagreement. Go back and deal with other things previously posted in this thread, as I have no desire to reinvent the wheel on the doctrine of total depravity.LOL. Which part? Where someone said that God's breath was marred by sin? Or when I demonstrated thoroughly that in fact God's breath AND spirit is in every individual? Which part shall I review? Because as far as I can tell you have dealt with nothing I have presented yet. If you want to make sideline comments, I guess you have a right to, but it is highly unproductive. I would hope you would lend your intelligence and your contributions to productivity, rather than simple barbs of disagreement. I believe I have presented a real challenge to total depravity. Perhaps you disagree with it, but it should at least be shown to be faulty, don't you think? If you are going to type, at least spend your time typing by being on topic, thanks. If you have problems understanding what I mean, go to www.reformed.org and look up the Canons of Dordt and how they are outlined there. Look also at the Westminister Confession of Faith and how it deals with the nature of man. Both are located on the site.
The language there is plain and unconfusing. A 'discussion' here where some of us may or may not be completely precise in our language solves nothing and only gives you a chance to confuse the issue - intentionally or not - from your misunderstanding of Calvinism.
If you're truly concerned about the truth and not just having a long protracted discussion, take a few moments to learn Calvinism accurately. THEN come back to the discussion.I have already read that, thanks for the link. I really am not an ignorant person, I'm not quite sure what you gave you that impression. I wonder, for a person to defend calvinism, how many books and how many confessions do you require them to read? And for them to challenge a point, how versed must they be? Either way, I am competent in my position. I don't need to be as extensively well read in Calvinism as you, to disagree with you. Otherwise I must demand you are as well read in my beliefs. Does anyone really want to play that game? How about we just stick to the topic? I have presented many scriptures which show that God's spirit and breath are inherent to the human condition. They are a part of "us." The bible makes this true, so how can total depravity simutaneously be true? Total depravity where every aspect of man has been currupted by sin? Even God's breath? Roldan saw the dilemna here, and tried to define God's breath as man's soul and affirmed that yes, God's breath has been currupted. Roldan saw the consequence of my presentation, and didn't know how to handle it. He has changed his view a few times and still hasn't been able to really deal with it. BC, if you want to be a part of the conversation, please contribute something productive. Deal with the material, and not just throw "go study calvinism" barbs out, ok? The bible claims that God's breath and God's spirit is in every individual. How do you see this biblical fact impacting the doctrine of total depravity?
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Post by eternal on Jul 31, 2006 15:42:27 GMT -5
Roldan? Are you satisfied with the biblical witness that demonstrates God's Spirit in every individual? Or that you were not being truthful in your multiple claims that I believed something I repeatedly put forth I did not? Black Calvinist? Are you still exploring that same biblical witness (along with the fact of God's breath being present in every being) and it's impact on the false doctrine of total depravity? Do you simply want to limit the spread of depravity to what Dort states here? "Rather, in their place the humans brought upon themselves blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in their mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in the hearts and wills; and finally impurity in all the emotions."If so, do you believe Calvin was erronious when he wrote, "For our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added, (this, however, many will by no means concede,) that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence." (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 1, Section 8) Since you have thus far been unwilling to state an opinon, I am forced to guess. That is neither nice nor fair Perhaps you are willing to admit the bible is accurate when it teaches that God's spirit and breath is in every individual as I have charted too often to mention in this thread alone. If you do agree with the bible on this point, perhaps you feel that Dort affirms this because it does not mention "everything" that is within man or our nature as a whole, but rather simple points. If this were your defense, I would find it disengenuous, because the whole of doctrine is not to be taken that way, as though we were fragmented up, and only those "parts" were depraved. Just as the Calvin quote denotes, that "everything" about man has been depraved, and if the bible is accurate when it says God's spirit and breath are "within" man and a part of who we are, then those aspects of our nature and condition too are depraved. Do you agree? Of course, I am having a conversation with myself here, and you likely have an entirely different track of approach. But you have largely been unwiling to engage this biblical difficulty for your doctrine, so you have instead merely resorted to insulting my intelligence. I aint mad atcha, I just hope that if you do indeed intend to be taken seriously, you would post in that fashion. I look forward to a more authentic and on topic response. peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 31, 2006 17:09:30 GMT -5
Roldan? Are you satisfied with the biblical witness that demonstrates God's Spirit in every individual? I haven't seen any biblical witness to be satisfied with. You have eisigeted your own foreign interpretation to the texts which has been shown already by Answer, BC, and myself. You have fallen deeply into the pits of Neo-Orthodoxy aka Heresy that you have been blinded to the true meaning of the text and want so desperately to disprove Total Depravity that you would say anything to do so. I find this rather sad and heartbreaking, but we can't convince all now can we. "Or that you were not being truthful in your multiple claims that I believed something I repeatedly put forth I did not?"You say you don't affirm what I said you did but in your extensive attempt to explain what you mean you do affirm what I have accused you of, so no I am not being untruthful. Anyone who can read can see what you mean. You are the one outside of the historic understanding of the Church aka Orthodoxy and must prove your rebellion not me, I really have no desire to explain myself to you, as BC stated study more so you can understand our position before you ATTEMPT to disprove it and call it a false doctrine, also your haughty and prideful spirit is nauseating. Study dog, study.
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Post by eternal on Jul 31, 2006 18:15:02 GMT -5
Roldan? Are you satisfied with the biblical witness that demonstrates God's Spirit in every individual? I haven't seen any biblical witness to be satisfied with. You have eisigeted your own foreign interpretation to the texts which has been shown already by Answer, BC, and myself. So the vast array of scriptural witness is unconvincing to you? With plain words such as "His spirit" and "His breath" leaving you uncompelled? lol. What will it take? One can not get any clearer than Job 34:14. Answer has not answered them. Neither has BC. BC has completely missed the point and has tackled an argument I have never made, in case you missed that. You saw the consequences of this plain biblical truth and committed heresy by claiming that God's breath has been marred by sin, and even equated God's breath with mans soul, neglecting the biblical fact that the unsaved have their sould "destroyed in hell." When confronted with these heresies of yours, you went balistic. While very "dogmatic" you have never proved anything. Your posts have been void of scripture and consistency, let alone integrity (as you have multiple times falsely charged me with beliefs I have never stated, and have in fact repeatedly denied). I have shown the plain meaning. That is the bible teaches that every being has God's breath in it (PLEASE DISPUTE THIS) and God's spirit is indeed in every individual. I have shown multiple passages, and NO ONE has ever shown how it is faulty. YOu have made the false charge that both you, answer and BC have, but I challenge you to quote that portion of any of your posts. Please find the quote of any person who showed this to be false. Please? Roldan, lately you have been making a lot of false statements, is everything ok? Plain and simple, you are now lying. There is no getting around it. I didn't want to say it before, and instead give you the benefiet of the doubt. But you can not quote one thing I have ever said that would give ANY ONE the impression that I believe they are identical. Never. Not once have I come close, but instead of consistently shown their distinctiveness. My repeated use of Job 34 shows this if nothing else. That plus my continued rejection of your claims. So if I have never stated what you claim, and in fact have repeatedly rejected what you claim, how is it that you some how magicaly know what I believe deep down underneath what I say/write? Roldan, do you have a problem with admitting fault in your life? Please repent from your sins, God is eager to welcome your humilty, please be reconciled to him and those you have slandered (ie me). peace.
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Post by the answer on Jul 31, 2006 19:20:38 GMT -5
14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath,
15 all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust. Total depravity does not fall due to this passage. You are making this mean more that it does. In living beings the rûaḥ is their breath, whether of animals (Gen 7:15; Ps 104:25, 29), men (Isa 42:5; Ezk 37:5), or both (Gen 7:22–23); whether inhaled (Jer 2:24) or on the lips (Isa 11:4; cf. Job 9:18; (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (electronic ed.) (Page 836). Chicago: Moody Press) His breath/Spirit gives us life. It makes us alive. This does not defeat total depravity. For total depravity teaches that man is in total rebellion and is unable to redeem himself do to our nature that has been hijacked by sin. We are born sinners. We do, think, and act sinfully. You have focused on ONE definition given and have ignored the others. "Every aspect of humanity has be tainted by sin" U contend, " well is his sprit also tainted by sin" His "breath/Spirit" is not his Holy Spirit, so then what is it? Again, its what gives us life. I'm not sure how u are defining "spirit" here. Do u think the "spirit" refers the the 3rd person of the trinity? To focus on whether or not "all aspects of humanity is tainted by sin" misses the point/conclusion of total depravity. Total depravity explains why men act as they do. They are depraved. To focus on "total" gets us nowhere. The result is the same. Even if we were half depraved, we still would need Jesus, for we could not redeem our selves even from that.
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blackcalvinist
New Member
think eternal (not him....HIM ^^ )
Posts: 11
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Post by blackcalvinist on Jul 31, 2006 19:37:43 GMT -5
Where in Romans 10 ? Second, Who is the 'all' and the 'us' of 2 Peter 3:9 ? People misquote this on a regular basis. Third, to answer your first question on 'is anyone excluded from believing' - John 6:44-45 answers that in detail. I spend some time on it here: theologicallycorrect.com/relationship/ch7.htmlHave you dug into the resources I asked you to look at earlier ?
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