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Post by eternal on Jul 19, 2006 16:14:40 GMT -5
You agree that only its only if God touches that men believe, but then u don't accept total depravity. Our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total. There is no hope of man on his own submitting to God. therfore its total..unless u believe there is some chance outside of grace.
Perhaps you don't understand my premise.
A) God's Spirit is in every person
B) God's Breath fills every being
C) All humans are created in the image of God.
These three concepts are INTRAGURAL to the deffinition of the human being. In other words, inherent to the human condition is the preceeding three points.
With this laid out as biblical fact (as far as I can deduce), please explain total depravity/inability.
Clearly if the 3 above points are true, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to be "totaly depraved" nor is "total inability" a true concept either, since the eternal, uncurrupted nature of God is as much a part of us as any sin blemish.
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Post by the answer on Jul 19, 2006 16:49:03 GMT -5
When u hear us use the term " total depravity", what do u think we mean?
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Post by eternal on Jul 19, 2006 16:54:50 GMT -5
When u hear us use the term " total depravity", what do u think we mean? That every aspect of humanity has been tainted and depraved by sin. I contest that, by reminding you the scriptures teach that God's Spirit indwells each person, as does His "breath" and we are created in His image. So as a result, I ask are these aspects of humanity also "depraved?" Also when the other term is used "inable" it implies that humanity is completely "inable" to respond to God without being zapped first (salvation preceeds belief). However, again the 3 points above demonstrate that humanity is constructed with this as its foundation and as a result is already in intimate contact with God by virtue of existence, and how the bible defines that existence.
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Post by the answer on Jul 19, 2006 17:24:31 GMT -5
ok
1. I don't think God's Spirit is in every person. What then is the difference between us and the world?
2. God's breath fills every being. ok? I understand this as simply God giving us life. It doesn't make us holy or anything.
3. And yes, we are made in the image of God. but what does that mean?
So as a result, I ask are these aspects of humanity also "depraved?"
That's a weird question for me. What does having God's Spirit ( i don't think all have Him..but we'll go with it for now) do for us? What does having His breath do for us? What does being made in the image of God do for us? Even if all that is true " all have sinned"
Are those aspects depraved? No? I dunno, its a strange question
I'm having trouble because the bible makes no attempt to make man look good. EVen with the points u brought up, I fail to see how those points affect the fact that 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Why can't anyone come?
Total depravity doesn't mean man is as bad as he could be, he could do worse. Hitler could have been worse.
There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the power of sin.
This is all true even including the 3 points u bring up.
I'd say again that man apart from God's touch will never surrender. This is what the fall is all about, right? Even tho we are made in the image of God, sin has come in and currpted.
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Post by eternal on Jul 19, 2006 17:44:32 GMT -5
1. I don't think God's Spirit is in every person. What then is the difference between us and the world?
As I already wrote, Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
We see this clarified in Psalm 104:29-30 and 146:3-4. Both passages teach that the Spirit that God gave returns back to Him, and without that Spirit, the person "expires."
2. God's breath fills every being. ok? I understand this as simply God giving us life. It doesn't make us holy or anything.
Agreed. But you are missing the point. If God's breath fills everything, and the scriptures are accurate in reporting that God's spirit is indeed in each of us (if only in the form of His breath at the very least)...is this ALSO depraved and currupted by sin? Is this part of the human condition sinful?
You said, There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin.
So I ask with that as your foundation...Is God's breath/Spirit within us not "left untouched by sin?" I would argue that indeed God's breath and Spirit have NOT been currupted by sin.
That's a weird question for me. What does having God's Spirit ( i don't think all have Him..but we'll go with it for now) do for us? What does having His breath do for us? What does being made in the image of God do for us? Even if all that is true " all have sinned"
Are those aspects depraved? No? I dunno, its a strange question
Weird, but very important. God's Spirit and breath is A PART OF WHO WE ARE. We are not human beings if we do not have His spirit/breath. So have these elements of our being been "touched by sin?"
This is the very same point I have been making since my first post in this thread. I am just reiterating it over and over again, hoping it will finaly be grasped.
God's breath/spirit is a part of who we are. We have skin, bones, eyes, knees, a mind, emotions, God's breath, God's Spirit, etc. All of this is a part of who we are. You say that every aspect of "who we are" has been currupted by sin. I ask you in return, do you include God's breath and God's spirit since both of these help constitute "who we are."
Give attention to Job 34:14-15 >
14 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Amen! Without God's Spirit and breath, there is no being. Period. If God were to take it away, we wouldn't exist.
However, we do exist, and His Spirit and breath help constitute this existence. How then can we be "totally depraved" with the notion that "there is no part of us that is left untouched by sin." Has God's spirit and breath been "left untouched by sin?"
If you say yes it has been left untouched, then we logicaly are not "totaly depraved" since it is no longer true that "There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin."
peace.
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rob
Full Member
Does anyone have an inflatable turkey?
Posts: 136
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Post by rob on Jul 20, 2006 1:23:41 GMT -5
Yo Aristotle, Thanks for bringing this up. I have had my questions about Calvinism too and the points you have brought up are valid to me. I believe one of the points of Calvinism says that we can't loose our salvation and that is one that I definitely don't agree with. I was studying this morning and I found Matthew 8:10-12. This is where Jesus was talking to His followers after the Centurion who wasn't considered "saved" at that time came and asked Jesus to only speak the Word to heal his servant. In verse 12 Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The only way to get into the kingdom is by repentance. You have to be born-again to enter His Kingdom. If Calvinism teaches that once you are in the Kingdom you can't loose your salvation because of "spiritual regeneration" it could cause many to have a false confidence that says "no matter what I do I can't loose my salvation if I am truly born-again". How do you stand on this issue? This is a definite Eisegesis, you inserted into the text what it doesn't say. If you read the contex here it is not refering to believers but to the children of Israel aka the children of the Kingdom. We also know that Paul states that not all Israel is Israel meaning that there are children of Israel/Kingdom that will be cut off because they were never circumcised of the heart which is a true Jew, therefore those who will be cut off in this passage are those Jews/son's of kingdom who's faith was based on their works and think of themselves as good(vs 10) in contrast to the Centurion who thought of himself as nothing (vs. 8). The logical conclusion that Rob came to then is false and based on a misunderstanding of who the children of the Kingdom was. This is no proof text for loosing your salvation. Jesus refered to them as children of the Kingdom meaning they were born into the Kingsom at one time so they were in at one time. Why didn't He just call them tares if they were never in the Kingdom? If there is "icy Jesus" in what I said, then there is also "icy Jesus" in what you said as well. Romans 9:6 says, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" which means all of them started out as Israel, but not all of them ended up as Israel. It does not say they were never of Israel. You are infering that the scripture says that. But of course it has to be the way you are saying it in order for Calvinism to stand. How about Hebrews 6:4-6? I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this passage except for, "read the rest of the chapter". The rest of the chapter still does not negate the fact that it is possible to commit the sin of apostacy which is also mentioned in 1 John 5:16. Jesus even spoke on the same sin in Mark 3:29 . How can a person truly blaspheme the Holy Spirit if they don't truly know Him?
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Post by the answer on Jul 20, 2006 16:21:27 GMT -5
As I already wrote, Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
We see this clarified in Psalm 104:29-30 and 146:3-4. Both passages teach that the Spirit that God gave returns back to Him, and without that Spirit, the person "expires."
ok...it's not "God's Spirit" as in the Holy Spirit. It simply means u die.
But you are missing the point. If God's breath fills everything, and the scriptures are accurate in reporting that God's spirit is indeed in each of us (if only in the form of His breath at the very least)...is this ALSO depraved and currupted by sin? Is this part of the human condition sinful?
You said, There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin.
So I ask with that as your foundation...Is God's breath/Spirit within us not "left untouched by sin?" I would argue that indeed God's breath and Spirit have NOT been currupted by sin.
Even if I grant that the "breath of life is not touched by sin" what follows from that? I'm not sure how that refutes my view that man is in total rebellion.
What does having the breath of GOd do? Makes me alive?
God's Spirit and breath is A PART OF WHO WE ARE. We are not human beings if we do not have His spirit/breath. So have these elements of our being been "touched by sin?"
This is the very same point I have been making since my first post in this thread. I am just reiterating it over and over again, hoping it will finaly be grasped.
God's breath/spirit is a part of who we are. We have skin, bones, eyes, knees, a mind, emotions, God's breath, God's Spirit, etc. All of this is a part of who we are. You say that every aspect of "who we are" has been currupted by sin. I ask you in return, do you include God's breath and God's spirit since both of these help constitute "who we are."
again u would have to explain how u understand that being a part of our being. MAybe it has!! We have the Holy Spirit living in us, yet we still sin, think evil thoughts and everything. So maybe the "breath/spirit" is currupted. But again, to me all it means is that we are alive. It's almost like asking is the oxygen currupted.
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Post by eternal on Jul 20, 2006 19:47:30 GMT -5
ok...it's not "God's Spirit" as in the Holy Spirit. It simply means u die.
What spirit is it that returns back to Him? And if it is "back" to Him, where did it come from? Do you believe we are spirits sort of along the lines of the gnostic belief?
Eccl. says that the spirit will return back to God. Job says 14 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. "
See? "HIS SPIRIT AND HIS BREATH" are in all human beings. THis is what the bible teaches.
Even if I grant that the "breath of life is not touched by sin" what follows from that? I'm not sure how that refutes my view that man is in total rebellion.
What it means is that your statement that "there is no part of us that is left untouched by sin" is INCORRECT. Because now you "grant" that there is in fact a part of us that has been left untouched by sin. Total Depravity is now refuted.
What does having the breath of GOd do? Makes me alive?
Seems that way. When God breathed into the man's nostrils he became a living being (Gen. 2:7) again u would have to explain how u understand that being a part of our being. MAybe it has!! We have the Holy Spirit living in us, yet we still sin, think evil thoughts and everything. So maybe the "breath/spirit" is currupted. But again, to me all it means is that we are alive. It's almost like asking is the oxygen currupted.
I don't know how I can explain it any clearer than I already have. God's spirit is in us. As is His breath. They help constitute who we are. If we did not have God's Spirit or breath, we would not exist, as Job 34 attests. If I did not have a heart, I would not exist. God's Spirit and breath is a part of who I am.
Now, with this as a biblical truth, has every aspect of who I am, been tainted and currupted by sin?
Obviously not.
Thus total depravity is a false deduction from the teachings of scripture.
peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 20, 2006 21:32:40 GMT -5
ok...it's not "God's Spirit" as in the Holy Spirit. It simply means u die. Exactley. The breath of God in us is our OWN spirits/souls thats what returns to God for God to then judge. This is basic. Everyone DOES NOT have God's Spirit in them. The proof texts produced by Eternal does not in no way prove that. Only Believers have the Spirit of God aka The Holy Spirit or Does God have two Spirits? huh? Eternal's first and main premise is false. Stick to this and his whole argument will crumble and Total Inability becomes more clear. "What spirit is it that returns back to Him? And if it is "back" to Him, where did it come from?" Simple. Our own spirit. Do you believe that we have no spirit along the lines of SDA's and Jehovas Witnesses? God gave us our spirit hence it is His and returns to him, see answer above. "Do you believe we are spirits sort of along the lines of the gnostic belief?"of course we don't. We are body and spirit along the lines of orthodox christian belief. "Eccl. says that the spirit will return back to God. Job says 14 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. "
See? "HIS SPIRIT AND HIS BREATH" are in all human beings. THis is what the bible teaches." This is INFERENCE. Job does not state that His Spirit is IN every human. You are inserting your presupposition into the text. As a matter of fact this passage is not even talking about God's Spirit but about MAN'S spirit. NIV14 If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath,
Amp. 14If [God] should set His heart upon him [man] and withdraw His [life-giving] spirit and His breath [from man] to Himself,
Listen to John Gill here..
"[if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; not his own spirit and breath, drawing in and retaining that within himself, and withholding the influence of it from his creatures, which the Septuagint version seems to favour; but the spirit and breath of man, which are of God, and which, as he gives, he can gather when he pleases. The spirit or rational soul of man is put in him by the Lord; this at death is separated from the body, yet dies not with it, but is gathered to the Lord: and the breath which he breathes into man, and is in his nostrils, and which, as he gives, he can take away, and then man dies. But in doing this he does no injustice; indeed, should he in anger and resentment rise up and deal thus with men in general, the consequence must be as follows.
Verse 15. All flesh shall perish together,.... Not one by one, or one after another, as they generally do, but all together; as when the flood swept away the world of the ungodly. "All flesh" signifies all men, and their bodies of flesh particularly, which are weak, frail, and mortal; and if God gathers or takes out the spirit from them, they die immediately, which is meant by perishing, as in Ecclesiastes 7:15;"
Premise A is false. Therefore your whole argument crumbles.
"Because now you "grant" that there is in fact a part of us that has been left untouched by sin. Total Depravity is now refuted."
No sir, in light of the correct interpretation, your argument is refuted and mans entire being is marred by sin.
Now, with this as a biblical truth, has every aspect of who I am, been tainted and currupted by sin?
Obviously Yes.
"Thus total depravity is a false deduction from the teachings of scripture."
Wrong. Total Depravity stands for every part of Man cursed by sin.
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Post by eternal on Jul 20, 2006 21:48:54 GMT -5
Your interpretation is false. It is negligent, and sorely so.
The bible says that God breathed into man, and man became a living soul. This is Genesis 2. Do you disagree that this is the "breath" that Job 34 reffers to when it writes, "If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath?"
The John Gill passage is intresting. First he seems to disagree with the LXX, but does not explain why. Secondly he says that the "breath" being reffered to is PRECISELY the breath that is reffered to in Gen. 2. Gill writes, "and the breath which he breathes into man, and is in his nostrils, and which, as he gives, he can take away, and then man dies." From this passage at least, Gill clearly makes the connection between Gen 2 and Job 34, and pronounces the breath mentinoed in both to be the same.
Therefore your argument (as it depends soley on the work of Gill, lol) falls on its face instantaneously. You said in your post that, "No sir, in light of the correct interpretation, your argument is refuted and mans entire being is marred by sin. "
Really? The only person you cited disagrees with you. He claims that the breath of God is indeed in man. Now I don't know if he believes or not if it has been "marred by sin," but I do have you in front of me.
Do you accept the biblical teaching that the breath of God is in man, and "makes him a living soul?" Do you agree that the breath of God helps constitute who a human being is?
And with this BIBLICAL FOUNDATION, do you now continue to suggest that "mans entire being is marred by sin? " God's breath is "marred by sin?" That is a very harsh teaching. Would you like to deffend it?
Now, if you would like to reject the biblical teaching that God's spirit is within all of humanity (Job 34:14-15; Eph. 4:6-notice, "in all") then I would hope you are prepared to deffend that rejection. As it stands I have shown through the scriptures that you are incorrect, as is total depravity. I am unwilling to attribute to God, depravity. I am unwilling to call Him currupt or depraved. I am unwilling to say He has been marred by sin.
Your own defense (Gill) agrees that God's breath helps constitute the human condition. Has God's breath been marred by sin? Been depraved? Currupted?
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 20, 2006 22:13:34 GMT -5
Your interpretation is false. It is negligent, and sorely so. No it isn't. And you haven't proven so, I'll show you why. "The bible says that God breathed into man, and man became a living soul. This is Genesis 2. Do you disagree that this is the "breath" that Job 34 reffers to when it writes, "If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath?"" No I agree. It is your false view of what this "spirit" is that leads you into your error. This breath is MAN'S spirit NOT God's. So in our view God's spirit is not marred, man's spirit is. "Secondly he says that the "breath" being reffered to is PRECISELY the breath that is reffered to in Gen. 2. Gill writes, "and the breath which he breathes into man, and is in his nostrils, and which, as he gives, he can take away, and then man dies." From this passage at least, Gill clearly makes the connection between Gen 2 and Job 34, and pronounces the breath mentinoed in both to be the same."Right, you have proven my point. God breathing into man was giving man a soul/spirit not breathing into man a part of God's Holy Spirit. com'on now. "Therefore your argument (as it depends soley on the work of Gill, lol) falls on its face instantaneously." Gill was an example. Would you like for me to present more commentaries that agree with me? I can very easily. Can you? "Really? The only person you cited disagrees with you. He claims that the breath of God is indeed in man. Now I don't know if he believes or not if it has been "marred by sin," but I do have you in front of me."AGAIN, your are erroneously equating God's breath with God's Spirit, this is a logical fallacy and a false interpretation with NO biblical warrent therefore untenable. "Do you accept the biblical teaching that the breath of God is in man, and "makes him a living soul?" Do you agree that the breath of God helps constitute who a human being is?" Absolutely!!!! Breath of God= Man's soul "And with this BIBLICAL FOUNDATION, do you now continue to suggest that "mans entire being is marred by sin? " God's breath is "marred by sin?"" Of course I continue to in light of the correct understanding of God's breath which you agree is the living SOUL of MAN. So Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin. What the bible calls SPIRITually DEAD. "That is a very harsh teaching. Would you like to deffend it?"I just did. "Now, if you would like to reject the biblical teaching that God's spirit is within all of humanity (Job 34:14-15; Eph. 4:6-notice, "in all") then I would hope you are prepared to deffend that rejection." I just did. I also showed that your interpretation is false. "As it stands I have shown through the scriptures that you are incorrect, as is total depravity." You have done no such thing. ;D "I am unwilling to attribute to God, depravity. I am unwilling to call Him currupt or depraved. I am unwilling to say He has been marred by sin."Me too. This is a strawman for we do not believe this. This is your premise not ours. As a matter of fact this IS what you are saying. You have people in who are spiritually dead in trespasses walking around with God's Spirit in them, this is absurd. "Your own defense (Gill) agrees that God's breath helps constitute the human condition. Has God's breath been marred by sin? Been depraved? Currupted?"Again this is a strawman, no refutation needed. Now concerning the passages you used they do NOT support your claim as already shown. The Eph. passage that states... "in all" this is clear from the context that Paul is writing to BELIEVERS, com'on bro. nice try
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Post by eternal on Jul 20, 2006 23:15:19 GMT -5
No I agree. It is your false view of what this "spirit" is that leads you into your error. This breath is MAN'S spirit NOT God's. So in our view God's spirit is not marred, man's spirit is.huh? You later say that God's breath is mans soul, but here it is man's spirit. Which is it, or is it your contention that they are the same thing? More on that later, but may I ask you how do you suppose that I claim God's spirit is marred? I don't follow your reasoning. Right, you have proven my point. God breathing into man was giving man a soul/spirit not breathing into man a part of God's Holy Spirit. com'on now.That is not what the bible teaches. It says, Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.And Paul says of this, 1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.Clearly, MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL, or a LIBING BEING, BECAUSE of the breath of God that was breathed into him. There is NO merit to your assertion that God's breath = man's soul. LOL. Rather God's breath was the final component to animating this being, a "living soul." Clearly, you have much work to do, if you choose to continue down this erronious path of yours, suggesting that God's breath is synonomous with man's soul. Really, how do you deal with the passage that says that God will destroy the soul of the wicked in hell? (Mt. 10:28) Is it your belief that God destroys His breath? This is strange doctrine ( 1 Timothy 1:3), and according to the scriptures I must instruct you not to teach them. AGAIN, your are erroneously equating God's breath with God's Spirit, this is a logical fallacy and a false interpretation with NO biblical warrent therefore untenable.Perhaps you have not read closely to what I have typed, either that or it has been going over your head. I have never equated God's breath and God's spirit. I have made it clear that they are two distinct entities, just as Job 34 makes clear. Please reread my posts and this will be made abundantly clear. Of course I continue to in light of the correct understanding of God's breath which you agree is the living SOUL of MAN.
So Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin. What the bible calls SPIRITually DEAD. I must make you aware, you are speaking blasphemy. I will pray for your eyes to be open to the God of all creation, the God who gave you life, and if indeed you have been reborn that you would repent of such speach towards God's breath and Spirit. God has not sinned, nor been tainted by it. Please recant. God's breath IS NOT marred by sin. NO! I just did.LOL I just did. I also showed that your interpretation is false. LOL, again. Do you disagree with the bible, that God is "in all?" And where exactly did you prove that God's spirit is NOT in all? Can you cut and paste that "proof?" Me too. This is a strawman for we do not believe this. This is your premise not ours.Uh, brudda, I must quote you as you said, "Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin.You unequivocally stated that GOd's breath is marred by sin. Yikes. Not only did you completely ignore the bible's teaching on the matter of God's breath and man's soul (ie man's soul is destroyed in hell, and that God's breath "made man a living soul", not "gave man a living soul"), but you further make a mess of the doctrines of God by attributing to His breath...SIN! Please acknowledge and repent of this blasphemy. As a matter of fact this IS what you are saying. You have people in who are spiritually dead in trespasses walking around with God's Spirit in them, this is absurd. As the bible says, without God's sustainging presence, NO PERSON would be alive. There would in fact be no existence at all. Your denial of God's sustaining presence is absurd. The belief that man can exist without God is absurd. this is clear from the context that Paul is writing to BELIEVERS, com'on bro. nice tryLOL. So he is talking only about believers? LOL. HOw about in Acts 17 where he says it is "in God we exist?" He was actually speaking to heathens at the time. Was Paul not telling the truth at Mars Hill? Or Romans 11:36? Here he says that God is through "all things." Does he mean by this "all things Christian?" This theme runs deep throughout the scripture. Nothing has being outside of God. Jer. 23:23 says ""Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" Do you disagree with the obvious answer to this? Roldan, you are scaring me here. I am fearing for your othrodoxy. YOu have claimed that GOd's breath has been marred by sin. YOu claim that humans have being outside of God. May I ask, do you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? That He came in the flesh, lived a sinless life, was crucified and ressurected from the grave on the third day? I hope so. Please cease this false teaching and heresy. peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 21, 2006 0:24:09 GMT -5
No I agree. It is your false view of what this "spirit" is that leads you into your error. This breath is MAN'S spirit NOT God's. So in our view God's spirit is not marred, man's spirit is.huh? You later say that God's breath is mans soul, but here it is man's spirit. Which is it, or is it your contention that they are the same thing? More on that later, but may I ask you how do you suppose that I claim God's spirit is marred? I don't follow your reasoning. Right, you have proven my point. God breathing into man was giving man a soul/spirit not breathing into man a part of God's Holy Spirit. com'on now.That is not what the bible teaches. It says, Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.And Paul says of this, 1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.Clearly, MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL, or a LIBING BEING, BECAUSE of the breath of God that was breathed into him. There is NO merit to your assertion that God's breath = man's soul. LOL. Rather God's breath was the final component to animating this being, a "living soul." Clearly, you have much work to do, if you choose to continue down this erronious path of yours, suggesting that God's breath is synonomous with man's soul. Really, how do you deal with the passage that says that God will destroy the soul of the wicked in hell? (Mt. 10:28) Is it your belief that God destroys His breath? This is strange doctrine ( 1 Timothy 1:3), and according to the scriptures I must instruct you not to teach them. AGAIN, your are erroneously equating God's breath with God's Spirit, this is a logical fallacy and a false interpretation with NO biblical warrent therefore untenable.Perhaps you have not read closely to what I have typed, either that or it has been going over your head. I have never equated God's breath and God's spirit. I have made it clear that they are two distinct entities, just as Job 34 makes clear. Please reread my posts and this will be made abundantly clear. Of course I continue to in light of the correct understanding of God's breath which you agree is the living SOUL of MAN.
So Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin. What the bible calls SPIRITually DEAD. I must make you aware, you are speaking blasphemy. I will pray for your eyes to be open to the God of all creation, the God who gave you life, and if indeed you have been reborn that you would repent of such speach towards God's breath and Spirit. God has not sinned, nor been tainted by it. Please recant. God's breath IS NOT marred by sin. NO! I just did.LOL I just did. I also showed that your interpretation is false. LOL, again. Do you disagree with the bible, that God is "in all?" And where exactly did you prove that God's spirit is NOT in all? Can you cut and paste that "proof?" Me too. This is a strawman for we do not believe this. This is your premise not ours.Uh, brudda, I must quote you as you said, "Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin.You unequivocally stated that GOd's breath is marred by sin. Yikes. Not only did you completely ignore the bible's teaching on the matter of God's breath and man's soul (ie man's soul is destroyed in hell, and that God's breath "made man a living soul", not "gave man a living soul"), but you further make a mess of the doctrines of God by attributing to His breath...SIN! Please acknowledge and repent of this blasphemy. As a matter of fact this IS what you are saying. You have people in who are spiritually dead in trespasses walking around with God's Spirit in them, this is absurd. As the bible says, without God's sustainging presence, NO PERSON would be alive. There would in fact be no existence at all. Your denial of God's sustaining presence is absurd. The belief that man can exist without God is absurd. this is clear from the context that Paul is writing to BELIEVERS, com'on bro. nice tryLOL. So he is talking only about believers? LOL. HOw about in Acts 17 where he says it is "in God we exist?" He was actually speaking to heathens at the time. Was Paul not telling the truth at Mars Hill? Or Romans 11:36? Here he says that God is through "all things." Does he mean by this "all things Christian?" This theme runs deep throughout the scripture. Nothing has being outside of God. Jer. 23:23 says ""Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" Do you disagree with the obvious answer to this? Roldan, you are scaring me here. I am fearing for your othrodoxy. YOu have claimed that GOd's breath has been marred by sin. YOu claim that humans have being outside of God. May I ask, do you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? That He came in the flesh, lived a sinless life, was crucified and ressurected from the grave on the third day? I hope so. Please cease this false teaching and heresy. peace. So you wanna be funny? ok You have misinterpreted everything I said and then built yourself a strawman. Your the NEO-orthodox cat not me brudda. Maybe the Answer can help you out here. My view is that of the Orthodox tradition SO YOUR BLASPHEMY AND UNORTHODOX ACCUSATIONS ARE UNWARRENTED. You have YET TO PROVE that you view is in accord with Orthodoxy. When you do Then you can claim Pope and ask me to recant and to refrain from teaching the so called error. Man this is funny
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Post by eternal on Jul 21, 2006 8:51:02 GMT -5
I will pray for you Roldan. Remember, I have nothing against you personaly, But I have something huge against your theology. You might be a nice guy. I don't know. I will not speak on that, if I was in FL, we'd prolly hand out sometime. But I must come against your theology that claims God has been marred by sin, and is depraved/curruted. I rebuke it and must expose it to the flock lest they follow your heresy and listen to false teaching.
Perhaps sitting this one out will do you some good. Read the scriptures that are afforded to you by the Answer and I.
Hope you doing good,
peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 21, 2006 10:03:18 GMT -5
I will pray for you Roldan. Thanx " But I must come against your theology that claims God has been marred by sin, and is depraved/curruted. I rebuke it and must expose it to the flock lest they follow your heresy and listen to false teaching.
Perhaps sitting this one out will do you some good. Read the scriptures that are afforded to you by the Answer and I." Well, you would have a GREAT point if that is what I believed. But since I have been stating otherwise you really shouldn't be putting doctrines in my mouth that are not mine hence the Strawman. To put it more simply then, God's breath is what created man's soul/spirit I am a dichotomist not a Platonic gnostic Trichotomist. So Please put away the strawman and stick to the point. You have been proven wrong and have resorted to ad hominems and straws and like a big bad wolfe blew it down and thought you had a point. coo
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Post by eternal on Jul 21, 2006 10:29:19 GMT -5
To put it more simply then, God's breath is what created man's soul/spirit I am a dichotomist not a Platonic gnostic Trichotomist.That is not what you said Roldan. Can you quote yourself ever saying this? You have now created a NEW deffinition you have never held to before. Let me quote you, lest you once again falsely charge me of strawmen arguments: Which you further clarified by writting, and (one note before continuing....I DO NOT AGREE THAT THE BREATH OF GOD IS EQUIVALENT TO THE SOUL OF MAN, that was a false statement by Roldan) and and You have demonstrated exhaustively that you believe God's breath and man's soul are identical. That God's breath became man's soul. This is clearly seen by anyone who reads the above citations. Now however you are claiming that your position has always been that, "God's breath is what created man's soul/spirit ?" This just isn't true. You have never argued this point in this thread. If you have, please quote it, and explain the above citations I have provided. Especially the one that says, Breath of God=Man's soul LOL. So Please put away the strawman and stick to the point. You have been proven wrong and have resorted to ad hominems and straws and like a big bad wolfe blew it down and thought you had a point. coo
It is obvious to every literate person that I have not used a single straw man, but rather your quotes extensively. YOu have changed your claims in mid thread, which is fine, but you can't pretend as though this new doctrine is what you have been teaching all along. YOu have too much of your own words standing in your way. Remember, this is a message forum where your words are saved, not a casual conversation where you can claim a faulty memory for those who disagree. Here your words are saved in black and white. I also challenge the false charge of ad hominems. I have never assaulted you personaly, but rather said "Remember, I have nothing against you personaly, But I have something huge against your theology. You might be a nice guy. I don't know. I will not speak on that, if I was in FL, we'd prolly hand out sometime. But I must come against your theology "I have nothing against you Roldan, and have not said a word about you personaly other than you might be a nice guy. I even said we'd prolly hang out if we were close to each other. How is that an ad hominem? I am however compelled by the gospel to call out false teaching. I can not compromise the gospel in favor of unity. Unity at the expense of truth is not acceptable. Therefore I can not allow you to spit false doctrine on this board. I must come against it. Your doctrines that is, not you personaly. Please recant your claim that I am spitting ad hominems. Thank you. May I ask you one question though. You made the claim that Job 34 was talking about MAN'S spirit, not God's. HOwever you also claim that Job 34 is talking about God's breath, not mans. If it only uses one "His," how can it be reffering to two different individuals? That makes no sense. Please explain your interpretation as it seems to be quickly falling apart at the seams. peace.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 21, 2006 11:57:19 GMT -5
To put it more simply then, God's breath is what created man's soul/spirit I am a dichotomist not a Platonic gnostic Trichotomist.That is not what you said Roldan. Can you quote yourself ever saying this? You have now created a NEW deffinition you have never held to before. Let me quote you, lest you once again falsely charge me of strawmen arguments: Which you further clarified by writting, and (one note before continuing....I DO NOT AGREE THAT THE BREATH OF GOD IS EQUIVALENT TO THE SOUL OF MAN, that was a false statement by Roldan) and and You have demonstrated exhaustively that you believe God's breath and man's soul are identical. That God's breath became man's soul. This is clearly seen by anyone who reads the above citations. Now however you are claiming that your position has always been that, "God's breath is what created man's soul/spirit ?" This just isn't true. You have never argued this point in this thread. If you have, please quote it, and explain the above citations I have provided. Especially the one that says, Breath of God=Man's soul LOL. So Please put away the strawman and stick to the point. You have been proven wrong and have resorted to ad hominems and straws and like a big bad wolfe blew it down and thought you had a point. coo
It is obvious to every literate person that I have not used a single straw man, but rather your quotes extensively. YOu have changed your claims in mid thread, which is fine, but you can't pretend as though this new doctrine is what you have been teaching all along. YOu have too much of your own words standing in your way. Remember, this is a message forum where your words are saved, not a casual conversation where you can claim a faulty memory for those who disagree. Here your words are saved in black and white. I also challenge the false charge of ad hominems. I have never assaulted you personaly, but rather said "Remember, I have nothing against you personaly, But I have something huge against your theology. You might be a nice guy. I don't know. I will not speak on that, if I was in FL, we'd prolly hand out sometime. But I must come against your theology "I have nothing against you Roldan, and have not said a word about you personaly other than you might be a nice guy. I even said we'd prolly hang out if we were close to each other. How is that an ad hominem? I am however compelled by the gospel to call out false teaching. I can not compromise the gospel in favor of unity. Unity at the expense of truth is not acceptable. Therefore I can not allow you to spit false doctrine on this board. I must come against it. Your doctrines that is, not you personaly. Please recant your claim that I am spitting ad hominems. Thank you. May I ask you one question though. You made the claim that Job 34 was talking about MAN'S spirit, not God's. HOwever you also claim that Job 34 is talking about God's breath, not mans. If it only uses one "His," how can it be reffering to two different individuals? That makes no sense. Please explain your interpretation as it seems to be quickly falling apart at the seams. peace. I apologize for not being clear. I was stating that it is God breathing into man that makes him a soul thats WHY I said they were the same I NEVER EVER meant for you to take it as God's literal breath is man's soul, this not what I said. I should have worded it differently. I actually said this in my first post and is what I meant the whole time... Therefore what I meant to say is that God's breath is the CREATIVE force that gives us our soul not that they are one in the same. Thats why I quoted this version of the verse And then quoted Gill I was also trying to prove that your view that God's breath=His OWN Spirit was false hence my using the same equation and example to illustrate my position which obviously was taken the wrong way. BUT it should be clear now. Now Eternal prove that God's Spirit is in ALL humanity.
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Post by eternal on Jul 21, 2006 15:51:58 GMT -5
Therefore what I meant to say is that God's breath is the CREATIVE force that gives us our soul not that they are one in the same. What did you mean then when you wrote, Breath of God=Man's souland the correct understanding of God's breath which you agree is the living SOUL of MAN. I just don't see how these statements are reconcilled with your newer perspective, but when it comes down to it, you now claim that God's breath is not equivallent to man's soul. So, I accept this as your position. Hopefully it will not change again too quickly Now I will tackle two points A) God's spirit in humanity; B) Its impact on The Doctrine of Total Depravity A) God is omnipresent, which includes within people God is invisible/spirit: (Col. 1:15; 1 Ti. 1:17; Jn. 4:24) Psalms 139 discusses the inescabability from God's Beautiful Presence. The author imagines going through all aspects of reality, the muti tier levels as he describes it, yet God's Spirit is at every turn. 1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However not all men have this knowledge Eph. 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist." Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD. Coloss 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Clearly, God is "over all and through all and in all." Aside from this clear and detailed biblical witness, we find further biblical record in the passages I cited earlier, and have already pointed out your contradiction. Perhaps this time you will find time to address it? Job 34:14-15 >14 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." You claimed that "His spirit" refers to man as you said, Now contrast that with your assesment of the breath refference in that same passage: When I asked you if you agreed if the breath of Job 34 was indeed the same breath as Gen. 2 you said, Also, when I asked if you agreed that God's breath is in every man, you said, And then followed that up with your now infamous "God's breath = man's spirit." LOL Now you have two dilemnas here. 1) You claim that God's breath is equivalent to man's spirit. That makes no sense at all, especially in light of your newer view expressed in your last post. Care to clarify? 2) You agree that this breath IS IN FACT the "breath of God" cited in Gen. 2. So, my question to you, is when the bible says, "if He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,"Who does the "He" refference? You have claimed that it refferences both God and man? It refferences God when it talks about "breath" but it refferences man when it mentions "spirit?" LOL Please explain how you decipher this. This should be entertaining. B) As you have now acknowledged, God's breath is NOT to be confused with the soul of man (however one may understand it to be). Now, since you affirm that God's breath is in fact a part of every human being, do you still affirm your statement that "So Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin.Do you still teach that God's breath has been "marred by sin?" Please explain? If not, do you now stand with the biblical witness and renounce total depravity as false, since it is incorrect to claim that every aspect of humanity has been touched or marred by sin? Since the breath of God (at the very least) is a part of the human condition, and has been UNTOUCHED by sin? Of course, if you still teach that the breath of God has in fact been marred by sin as I have quoted you multiple times as saying, then I would ask for you to deffend that claim vigorously, as I still find it blasphemous and heretical. Even a d**nable one at that. Lastly, I was also trying to prove that your view that God's breath=His OWN Spirit was false hence my using the same equation and example to illustrate my position which obviously was taken the wrong way.Roldan as I have already told you, when I wrote, I have never equated God's breath with His spirit. In fact throughout this thread I have treated them as seperate entities. And I must ask you again to cease attributing false statements and doctrines to me. I have already warned you about this before in this thread. And now on this issue this is the second time. I do not equate God's breath and God's spirit as being identical. If you continue to make this claim, I will be forced to wash my hands of you.
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Jul 22, 2006 10:53:01 GMT -5
Therefore what I meant to say is that God's breath is the CREATIVE force that gives us our soul not that they are one in the same. What did you mean then when you wrote, Breath of God=Man's souland the correct understanding of God's breath which you agree is the living SOUL of MAN. I just don't see how these statements are reconcilled with your newer perspective, but when it comes down to it, you now claim that God's breath is not equivallent to man's soul. So, I accept this as your position. Hopefully it will not change again too quickly Now I will tackle two points A) God's spirit in humanity; B) Its impact on The Doctrine of Total Depravity A) God is omnipresent, which includes within people God is invisible/spirit: (Col. 1:15; 1 Ti. 1:17; Jn. 4:24) Psalms 139 discusses the inescabability from God's Beautiful Presence. The author imagines going through all aspects of reality, the muti tier levels as he describes it, yet God's Spirit is at every turn. 1 Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However not all men have this knowledge Eph. 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist." Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Jer. 23:23 "Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? 24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD. Coloss 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Clearly, God is "over all and through all and in all." Aside from this clear and detailed biblical witness, we find further biblical record in the passages I cited earlier, and have already pointed out your contradiction. Perhaps this time you will find time to address it? Job 34:14-15 >14 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." You claimed that "His spirit" refers to man as you said, Now contrast that with your assesment of the breath refference in that same passage: When I asked you if you agreed if the breath of Job 34 was indeed the same breath as Gen. 2 you said, Also, when I asked if you agreed that God's breath is in every man, you said, And then followed that up with your now infamous "God's breath = man's spirit." LOL Now you have two dilemnas here. 1) You claim that God's breath is equivalent to man's spirit. That makes no sense at all, especially in light of your newer view expressed in your last post. Care to clarify? 2) You agree that this breath IS IN FACT the "breath of God" cited in Gen. 2. So, my question to you, is when the bible says, "if He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,"Who does the "He" refference? You have claimed that it refferences both God and man? It refferences God when it talks about "breath" but it refferences man when it mentions "spirit?" LOL Please explain how you decipher this. This should be entertaining. B) As you have now acknowledged, God's breath is NOT to be confused with the soul of man (however one may understand it to be). Now, since you affirm that God's breath is in fact a part of every human being, do you still affirm your statement that "So Yes God's breath/man's soul is marred by sin.Do you still teach that God's breath has been "marred by sin?" Please explain? If not, do you now stand with the biblical witness and renounce total depravity as false, since it is incorrect to claim that every aspect of humanity has been touched or marred by sin? Since the breath of God (at the very least) is a part of the human condition, and has been UNTOUCHED by sin? Of course, if you still teach that the breath of God has in fact been marred by sin as I have quoted you multiple times as saying, then I would ask for you to deffend that claim vigorously, as I still find it blasphemous and heretical. Even a d**nable one at that. Lastly, I was also trying to prove that your view that God's breath=His OWN Spirit was false hence my using the same equation and example to illustrate my position which obviously was taken the wrong way.Roldan as I have already told you, when I wrote, I have never equated God's breath with His spirit. In fact throughout this thread I have treated them as seperate entities. And I must ask you again to cease attributing false statements and doctrines to me. I have already warned you about this before in this thread. And now on this issue this is the second time. I do not equate God's breath and God's spirit as being identical. If you continue to make this claim, I will be forced to wash my hands of you. Oh brother. Go ahead and wash your hands cause I already washed mine. Ima pick up the straws in this thread and go make a fire and roast me some hot dogs. Can't dialogue with a cat who not only misinterprets scripture but also people. Go ahead and say what you wish, I know your arrogance wants you to have the last word all the time but I will not respond. I don't have to explain myself to a Neo-Orthodox leader and teacher. Everyone who REALLY knows me here knows what I believe so no explanation needed. Carry on
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Post by eternal on Jul 22, 2006 23:31:38 GMT -5
Answer, care to pick up where we left off?
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