So What was Jesus doing up in hell anyways?

[eternal]

Loungin? Preaching? Working on His pre-ressurection tan? Discuss.

[SOLAFIDE]

I wanted to know that too. Ima do some studyin tonight and see what people say tomorrow.

pZ
SMURF

[OrthodoX]

Good question.

Jesus never went to hell. The wrath of God was fully poured out on the cross....when Jesus said it was finished, he meant it. The cross is where Christ conquered sin and paid the debt owed by his people. The cross is sufficient.

There is NO scriptural support for a doctrine that Christ went to hell, if by hell one means the place where God's wrath is eternally poured out on the unbelievers.

DoX

[eternal]

consistent said:

Good question.

Jesus never went to hell. The wrath of God was fully poured out on the cross....when Jesus said it was finished, he meant it. The cross is where Christ conquered sin and paid the debt owed by his people. The cross is sufficient.

There is NO scriptural support for a doctrine that Christ went to hell, if by hell one means the place where God's wrath is eternally poured out on the unbelievers.

DoX

You disagree with the apostles creed AND Calvin? Who woulda thunk! (Unless of course that is what your last comment was attempting to circumvent, by retranslating "hell")

[OrthodoX]

Eternal-

I do not disagree at all with the apostles' creed. One sees that that creed went through some revisions, especially concerning that line. The apostles creed I do not believe means that Christ went to hell as we understand hell to mean. The creed is meaning that Christ went to Sheol or the grave, not the Lake of Fire.

I am not sure really on where Calvin stood with this, but I will tell him as well, the doctrine that Christ went to hell, the place created for the fallen angels, is unbiblical.

grace and peace-

DoX

[eternal]

consistent said:

Eternal-

I do not disagree at all with the apostles' creed. One sees that that creed went through some revisions, especially concerning that line. The apostles creed I do not believe means that Christ went to hell as we understand hell to mean. The creed is meaning that Christ went to Sheol or the grave, not the Lake of Fire.
DoX

So you believe that the authors used what they knew to be a theologicaly loaded term, and used it to mean something completely different? Now THAT is faith!

Also, you can check for Calvin's perspective here: www.reformed.org/documents/Christ_in_hell/index.html

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

consistent said:

Eternal-

I do not disagree at all with the apostles' creed. One sees that that creed went through some revisions, especially concerning that line. The apostles creed I do not believe means that Christ went to hell as we understand hell to mean. The creed is meaning that Christ went to Sheol or the grave, not the Lake of Fire.
DoX

So you believe that the authors used what they knew to be a theologicaly loaded term, and used it to mean something completely different? Now THAT is faith!

Also, you can check for Calvin's perspective here: www.reformed.org/documents/Christ_in_hell/index.html

Eternal, that link to Calvins commentary on this topic agrees with Orthodox's view and mine. Read entirely

[eternal]

So what did Calvin mean when he wrote of you and Dox's position:

I grant that what they put forward concerning the meaning of the word is true: "hell" is frequently to be understood as "grave." But two reasons militate against their opinion, and readily persuade me to disagree with them. How careless it would have been, when something not at all difficult in itself has been stated with clear and easy words, to indicate it again in words that obscure rather than clarify it! Whenever two expressions for the same thing are used in the same context, the latter ought to be an explanation of the former. But what sort of explanation will it be if one says that "Christ was buried" means that "he descended into hell"? Secondly, it is not likely that a useless repetition of this sort could have crept into this summary, which the chief points of our faith are aptly noted in the fewest possible words. I have no doubt that all who have weighed this matter with some care will readily agree with me.

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

So what did Calvin mean when he wrote of you and Dox's position:

I grant that what they put forward concerning the meaning of the word is true: "hell" is frequently to be understood as "grave." But two reasons militate against their opinion, and readily persuade me to disagree with them. How careless it would have been, when something not at all difficult in itself has been stated with clear and easy words, to indicate it again in words that obscure rather than clarify it! Whenever two expressions for the same thing are used in the same context, the latter ought to be an explanation of the former. But what sort of explanation will it be if one says that "Christ was buried" means that "he descended into hell"? Secondly, it is not likely that a useless repetition of this sort could have crept into this summary, which the chief points of our faith are aptly noted in the fewest possible words. I have no doubt that all who have weighed this matter with some care will readily agree with me.

Oh I see what you are talking about. I thought you were talking about the part when Dox said "the wrath of God was poured out on Christ on the cross".

I agree with that and with calvin. Hell meaning grave? Well I'll admit I never really looked into that. Sheol means grave but the creed says hell so I would have to do some research on that one.

one

[eternal]

I guess a strange and unexpected byproduct of this thread is that the apostles creed is being disagreed with by some folks who have argued that people can't be Christian unless they adhere absolutely to every word! Woozers

But the question of the thread itself is intresting enough. I wonder how much thought the early church really gave to this?

[eternal]

dogmatix said:

I agree with that and with calvin. Hell meaning grave? Well I'll admit I never really looked into that. Sheol means grave but the creed says hell so I would have to do some research on that one.

I don't think it means "grave" either. I think Calvin got it right on that one...go figure! But I was under the impression that this is what YOU thought it meant, since this was what Orthodox was arguing for, and you said you agreed with his position.

Do you think you are going to now start believing this now just because the creed tells you to, or do you have to go into the scriptures and study yourself independent of the creed?

[OrthodoX]

Eternal-

I have NEVER said that I derive my authority from the creeds. The Creeds are authoratative because they are biblical. My position on the creeds is that they define orthodoxy, or the Church's historic interpretation of the bible.

I do not understand why you and the hyprets don't hear me on this?

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura necessitates the use and adherence to the Creeds.

But anyways...back the the subject, did Christ go to hell? Again, there is absolutely no scriptural support for this. You disagree? Okay, chapter and verse. I Peter 3:19 perhaps?

grace and peace-

DoX

[eternal]

consistent said:

Eternal-

I have NEVER said that I derive my authority from the creeds. The Creeds are authoratative because they are biblical. My position on the creeds is that they define orthodoxy, or the Church's historic interpretation of the bible.

I do not understand why you and the hyprets don't hear me on this?

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura necessitates the use and adherence to the Creeds.

But anyways...back the the subject, did Christ go to hell? Again, there is absolutely no scriptural support for this. You disagree? Okay, chapter and verse. I Peter 3:19 perhaps?

grace and peace-

DoX

Cool. Tomorrow I will present a case for Christ in hell. But I am intrested in reading if you affirm or not the Creeds contention that Jesus went to hell, or at least if you affirm that you are unorthodox because you do not confess the creeds teaching on this point.

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

Cool. Tomorrow I will present a case for Christ in hell.

Dope. But please make it short and sweet. Concise is preferred ;D

[eternal]

dogmatix said:

Dope. But please make it short and sweet. Concise is preferred ;D

Sorry. It will have to wait until tomorrow. I had some stuff ready to post, and I saved it onto a disk, but it wouldn't open here at the library for some reason, so I will have to try again tomorrow another way. But Dogmatix, I can ask you the same thing I asked Ortho, do you feel guilty about disagreeing with the Apostles Creed? Are you no longer Orthodox now? Welcome to the club!

[eternal]

consistent said:

But anyways...back the the subject, did Christ go to hell? Again, there is absolutely no scriptural support for this. You disagree? Okay, chapter and verse. I Peter 3:19 perhaps?

DoX

OK. Let's start where you suggested. What does it mean? Insinuate? Did Jesus evangelize to the dead during His time in death? Did they get their shot at redemption? Let’s see.

It is a concept that pops up in place, but briefly:
Romans 10:6-7. Paul even changes the words of Deuteronomy 30:13 to get this point across (from cross sea to down in the abyss)
Ephesians 4:8-10

This goes to the belief of the early church of a descent before ascencion.

CALVIN'S POSITION:

But we ought not to omit his descent into hell, a matter of no small moment in bringing about redemption. ---------If any persons have scruples about admitting this article into the Creed, it will soon be made plain how important it is to the sum of our redemption: if it is left out, much of the benefit of Christ’s death will be lost.
About Limbus Patrum:
To back up this interpretation, they wrongly adduce evidence from a psalm: "He shatters the doors of bronze and the bars of iron" [Psalm 107:16]. Likewise, from Zechariah: "He will redeem the captives from the waterless pit" [Zechariah 9:11 p.]. But the psalm foretells the liberation of those who are cast into bondage in far-off countries; Zechariah, moreover, compares the Babylonian disaster, into which the people had been cast, to a deep, dry pit or abyss, and at the same time teaches that the salvation of the whole church is a release from the nether depths. Thus, it has happened in some way or other that later generations thought it to be a place under the earth, to which they gave the name "Limbo."
It is childish to enclose the souls of the dead in a prison.
His Answer:
In this way the passage in Peter can probably be explained wherein he says: "Christ came and preached to the spirits were in a ‘watchtower — commonly rendered ‘prison’" [1 Peter 3:19, cf. Vg.]. The context (incorporating saints of old, as well as vs. 18) leads us to suppose that believers who died before that time shared the same grace with us. For Peter extols the power of Christ’s death in that it penetrated even to the dead; while godly souls enjoyed the present sight of that visitation which they had anxiously awaited. On the other hand, the wicked realized more clearly that they were excluded from all salvation. Now, while Peter does not clearly distinguish between the godly and the ungodly, we are not therefore to understand that he mixes them
The explanation given to us in God’s Word is not only holy and pious, but also full of wonderful consolation. If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment.
The point is that the Creed sets forth what Christ suffered in the sight of men, and then appositely speaks of that invisible and incomprehensible judgment which he underwent in the sight of God in order that we might know not only that Christ’s body was given as the price of our redemption, but that he paid a greater and more excellent price in suffering in his soul the terrible torments of a condemned and forsaken man.

AQUINAS' POSITION:

Summa Theologica
Part 3, Question 52:5
Whether Christ descending into hell delivered the holy Fathers from thence?
Objection 1: It would seem that Christ descending into hell did not deliver the holy Fathers from thence. For Augustine (Epist. ad Evod. clxiv) says: "I have not yet discovered what Christ descending into hell bestowed upon those righteous ones who were in Abraham's bosom, from whom I fail to see that He ever departed according to the beatific presence of His Godhead." But had He delivered them, He would have bestowed much upon them. Therefore it does not appear that Christ delivered the holy Fathers from hell.
Objection 2: Further, no one is detained in hell except on account of sin. But during life the holy Fathers were justified from sin through faith in Christ. Consequently they did not need to be delivered from hell on Christ's descent thither.
Objection 3: Further, if you remove the cause, you remove the effect. But that Christ went down into hell was due to sin which was taken away by the Passion, as stated above (, ). Consequently, the holy Fathers were not delivered on Christ's descent into hell.
On the contrary, Augustine says in the sermon on the Passion already quoted that when Christ descended into hell "He broke down the gate and 'iron bars' of hell, setting at liberty all the righteous who were held fast through original sin."
I answer that, As stated above (, ad 2), when Christ descended into hell He worked through the power of His Passion. But through Christ's Passion the human race was delivered not only from sin, but also from the debt of its penalty, as stated above (, ,3). Now men were held fast by the debt of punishment in two ways: first of all for actual sin which each had committed personally: secondly, for the sin of the whole human race, which each one in his origin contracts from our first parent, as stated in Rm. 5 of which sin the penalty is the death of the body as well as exclusion from glory, as is evident from Gn. 2 and 3: because God cast out man from paradise after sin, having beforehand threatened him with death should he sin. Consequently, when Christ descended into hell, by the power of His Passion He delivered the saints from the penalty whereby they were excluded from the life of glory, so as to be unable to see God in His Essence, wherein man's beatitude lies, as stated in the FS, Question [3], Article [8]. But the holy Fathers were detained in hell for the reason, that, owing to our first parent's sin, the approach to the life of glory was not opened. And so when Christ descended into hell He delivered the holy Fathers from thence. And this is what is written Zach. 9:11: "Thou also by the blood of Thy testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water." And (Col. 2:15) it is written that "despoiling the principalities and powers," i.e. "of hell, by taking out Isaac and Jacob, and the other just souls," "He led them," i.e. "He brought them far from this kingdom of darkness into heaven," as the gloss explains.

CATHOLIC:

Limbus Patrum: The fathers were detained in limbo until delivered by Christ, and were thus in hope and in a state of rest, while the children in limbo "have no hope of the blessed life."
“The abode of Saints who had already lived and died; declared to them the good news of His victory over sin, death, and hell; and then led them out of that place.”
"When Christ descended into hell, by the power of his Passion he delivered the saints from this penalty whereby they were excluded from the life of glory...."-Aquinas

GREEK WORDS

kerusso: Official announcement of proclamation made by a representative of a government. It is a herald. It does not indicate the content of the message, but rather that it was given.

euaggelizomai: Is what is used for the “preaching of the gospel” and is what is translated “preach the gospel.”
Can not mean the same, or be a part of the same thought--3:19 and 4:6.

It is also important to notice that while there is a progression of thoughts presented, there is no sense of order in regards to when this proclamation was made. So we will see that some will use this to their advantage in their interpretation of the passage.

NOAH ROUTE:
Webster and Wilkinson, D.F Bonner:
The Spirit off Christ preached to the anti-diluvian sinners of Noah’s time, through the person of Noah. This is backed up just a bit earlier in 1:11 where he states that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets as they spoke of Him.

“The apostle represents Christ as having gone and proclaimed a gospel of grace and faith to the spirits now in prison when they were in their state of earthly existence...Christ preached in Noah’s preaching, and that preaching was without effect, except for the souls of Noah and his household.”

Retorts: 1)No indication of "Holy Spirit."
2)Neither does it relate the topic of Christ’s death and resurrection as the text seems to do.

ENOCH ROUTE
Book of Enoch popular in NT times. Spoken of and quoted in Jude.

“It was also about these men that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds, which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken of Him.”

This may make since in light of The Book of Enoch-he went to Hades to announce to these angels their final doom.

Ch. 12
1 Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was 2 hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones. 3 And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers 4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."'

Rendell Harris, Schultuz, Moffatt
Believe it should read, “In the flesh He (Christ) was put to death, but He came to life in the Spirit. It was in the Spirit that Enoch also went and preached to the imprisoned spirits who had disobeyed at the time when God’s patience held out during the construction of the ark in the days of Noah.”

He believes this because words sound alike (en ho kai; Enoch) and when orated, the scribe missed it.
The theology ok, and perhaps the reason it is missed...but: (Selwyn)
1) The allusion to Enoch would be abrupt and quite unprepared for
2) Enoch is known for preaching doom to these angels and nothing else
3) The passage is too tied up in Christ to mean Enoch

Now in Gen 6:4 we see the mention of “Sons of God.” This is also brought up in the earlier text of Job 1:6,2:1-come with satan; 38:7-speaks of creation and the Sons of God shouted for joy.

Who are the Sons of God?--already alluded to them in the Enoch passage. They are fallen angels, those who had improper relations with women, and are cast down- and their punishment is imprisonment. Jubilees says 9/10 were trapped in prison, while 1/10 were left here with satan to do his will on earth.

Gunkel, Bousset, Loisy, Selwyn, Wuest
The word, “Spirits”--pneuma, is a phrase used of angelic beings both good and evil. Used in Enoch, Jubilees, Heb 1:14; Rev 1:4, 3:1.
Also alluded to in 2 Peter 2:4-5--Did not spare the angels when they sinned, and then even brought in the text of Noah.
Also in Jude 6,7--Fallen angels kept in bonds for “going after strange flesh.”
Angels in time of Noah-disobedient--take women as wives--cast down--trapped in bonds (prison) ---It’s a passing thought--already Jewish culture/literature
Jesus preaches Victory, not gospel to these saints (Kerusso)
Angels are not among those whom Christ died for (Heb. 2:16)
Vs. 22 tightens this up in that they have been subjected to Him through His passion.

Selwyn--“His ‘proclamation’ to the ‘spirits in prison’ was to advertise to them that their day of their rule was ended, and that, as Noah had been delivered from destruction to become the recipient of God’s first covenant with men, so now the Christian Church was redeemed through baptism into the liberty of a new moral and spiritual life over which sin was no longer to dominate, and of which Christ’s resurrection was the guarantee.”

Peter before this has been talking about being aliens in a foreign land, our citizenship is in heaven, so do not conform, but stay strong even amongst persecution. These fallen angels did not do this, and they fell. But through Christ even though we have transgressed, we are saved. Victory is preached. Persecution is to be expected for even Christ was judged in the flesh. Victory is yours! Encouragement and a charge is given.
4:6-- Is not in relation to 3:19. Instead:
“people actually dead in the common acceptance of the term. It is tempting to see here a reference to the universality of Christ’s judgment corresponding to the universality of His redemption asserted in 3:18.”

--- “St. Peter in verse 5 has in mind past and present members of the Church and their persecutors, and in verse 6 the first of these only.”

4:6 represents the fact that God’s message has indeed been preached to all. The message of Christ has been preached to all people, even before the incarnation. Persecution-judgment according to man-flawed; God judges all perfectly because the gospel (Jesus) has been preached to all, living and dead.

SELWYN:
Goes further in his over all theology of it and draws out the passage’s close parallels to baptism, and it’s significance and full meaning. A full death is a visit to Hades, or hell. He even aligns this passage to possible dependence on 1 Timothy 3:16. In his study of the Greek, he comments, “the first, second, and sixth articles of this statement of faith are so nearly paralleled in 1 Peter 3:18-22 as to point to dependence. This is all in significance to our baptism since our baptism is a likeness or similitude to Christ’s life, death and resurrection.

--This then ties us back to our opening comment by Calvin, that His descent is instrumental in our redemption.
CONCLUSION:
A lot of information. I see how each of the arguments and beliefs feed into each other and is easy to see why people believe what they do. But I would like to emphasize that Jesus made PROCLAMATION not evangelism. The bible never affirms a second chance at life. Either live or die. So whoever you believe Jesus made proclamation to, know within the cannon we have, there is no basis for preaching to the already dead in hopes that they might live. But know that whatever state they were in, that God’s gospel came to them, through obvious and conventional methods or not, they came.

Now I think the key to the passage (in its context) is one of a sure salvation, however this passing comment gives lots of room for refflection. It is clear that it was not a contested view, but rather commonly accepted, as it is only made mention of in passing, just as the other comments of its nature in the NT. And it is clear that a message was preached to saints in prison. The assencion of Isaiah also confirms this 1st century conviction of the nature of the "descent;" 9:16 --"And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day and will remain in that world for five hundred and forty-five days "

From this passage alone, we can see a great deal of validity to the notion of the nature of Christ's descent after His crucifixion.

I hope this was concise, and providing varying perspectives and options.

Now, only if yall would discuss you being unorthodox Chrisitans... ;D

[DoGMaTiX]

First of all Eternal you have misquoted therefore misinterpreting Calvin's position on this. You didn't finish the whole article.

10. THE "DESCENT INTO HELL" AS AN EXPRESSION OF THE SPIRITUAL TORMENT THAT CHRIST UNDERWENT FOR US

But we must seek a surer explanation, apart from the Creed, of Christ’s descent into hell. The explanation given to us in God’s Word is not only holy and pious, but also full of wonderful consolation. If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death. f439 A little while ago f440 we referred to the prophet’s statement that "the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him," "he was wounded for our transgressions" by the Father, "he was bruised for our infirmities" [Isaiah 53:5 p.]. By these words he means that Christ was put in place of evildoers as surety and pledge — submitting himself even as the accused — to bear and suffer all the punishments that they ought to have sustained. All — with this one exception: "He could not be held by the pangs of death" [Acts 2:24 p.]. No wonder, then, if he is said to have descended into hell, for he suffered the death that, God in his wrath had inflicted upon the wicked! Those who — on the ground that it is absurd to put after his burial what preceded it — say that the order is reversed in this way are making a very trifling and ridiculous objection. f441 The point is that the Creed sets forth what Christ suffered in the sight of men, and then appositely speaks of that invisible and incomprehensible judgment which he underwent in the sight of God in order that we might know not only that Christ’s body was given as the price of our redemption, but that he paid a greater and more excellent price in suffering in his soul the terrible torments of a condemned and forsaken man.

footnote: ft441 Calvin’s explanation of the descent into hell as consisting of Christ’s redemptive agony on the cross had been ridiculed by SebastianCastellio, as is indicated in a letter of Calvin to Viret, March, 1544 (CR XI. 688; tr. Calvin, Letters I. 409), Apparently Castellio held the view here rejected. Cf. CR XI. 675; Herminjard, Correspondance IX. 158,185.




Calvin's view was that Christ suffered the torment of Hell on the cross. The earlier quotes that you used was Calvin explaining other views not his own.

[eternal]

dogmatix said:

First of all Eternal you have misquoted therefore misinterpreting Calvin's position on this. You didn't finish the whole article.

You think so?

1) I DID quote the key parts, which you repeated and highlighted in your own post. Reread.

2) DESCENT. What is meant by that?


3) Next, I did NOT misrepresent Calvin's position at all. He believes that hell was visited upon Christ at the cross. Calvin tries to stay within the language of the creed, as is evidenced by his statement:

But we ought not to omit his descent into hell, a matter of no small moment in bringing about redemption. Now it appears from the ancient writers that this phrase which we read in the Creed was once not so much used in the churches

He also states that Jesus did not merely experience a "bodily death," (which Calvin says would have been "ineffectual," but rather "it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death"

So Calvin wants to express that Christ entered Hell, but he wants it to be of a more sophisticated nature, without the images of a travel, and so on, though he will use that language in articulating the experience from his view. Calvin taught that Christ entered hell and experienced the whole shabang when He died on the cross. Images of a physical Christ entering hell are foolish, as His body hung upon a cross, and later was buried for three days. Christ experienced hell as all do, whatever imagery one chooses to picture it as.

Now, you say your objection is only "first of all." I hope I have settled the "first things first," and hope to continue on the issue at hand, as well as the much dodged question of you and "orthodoxes" orthodoxy.

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

dogmatix said:

First of all Eternal you have misquoted therefore misinterpreting Calvin's position on this. You didn't finish the whole article.

You think so?

1) I DID quote the key parts, which you repeated and highlighted in your own post. Reread.

2) DESCENT. What is meant by that?


3) Next, I did NOT misrepresent Calvin's position at all. He believes that hell was visited upon Christ at the cross. Calvin tries to stay within the language of the creed, as is evidenced by his statement:

But we ought not to omit his descent into hell, a matter of no small moment in bringing about redemption. Now it appears from the ancient writers that this phrase which we read in the Creed was once not so much used in the churches

He also states that Jesus did not merely experience a "bodily death," (which Calvin says would have been "ineffectual," but rather "it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death"

So Calvin wants to express that Christ entered Hell, but he wants it to be of a more sophisticated nature, without the images of a travel, and so on, though he will use that language in articulating the experience from his view. Calvin taught that Christ entered hell and experienced the whole shabang when He died on the cross. Images of a physical Christ entering hell are foolish, as His body hung upon a cross, and later was buried for three days. Christ experienced hell as all do, whatever imagery one chooses to picture it as.

Now, you say your objection is only "first of all." I hope I have settled the "first things first," and hope to continue on the issue at hand, as well as the much dodged question of you and "orthodoxes" orthodoxy.

Well then we agree, don't we. Christ suffered Hell on the Cross.

Next point?

How in da world does that make me UN-orthodox if I affirm that truth of the Apostles creed? He descended into hell(on the cross) as we have established.

?

[eternal]

Was Jesus alive when He suffered hell, or dead?