For whom did Christ die?

[the answer]

If He died, and paid the debt for everyone, then everyone would be saved!

But that isn't the case.

What did Jesus death actually do then?

choz

[king neb]

yo,

i have a question for ya but it relates to your question of 'what did Jesus' death actually do' and futurism...so i'll hold off for now and wait if anyone takes you up on this. ;D

[the answer]

otay

[the answer]

hit me with it

[king neb]

alrighty, two-parter

1. Do you believe that physical death is a wage of sin?

I ask this because of your question above. I’m assuming that you believe that Christ’s atonement was effectual and substitutionary. That Christ ACTUALLY did take on the penalty of the elect’s sins in the stead of the elect. (or maybe you don’t believe He died just for the elect, but that’s besides the point for my question)

If that is true – that Christ took upon Himself the penalty of sin on behalf of His people…

2. why then do Christians still physically die?

Let’s put it another way:

If physical death is a penalty of sin and Christ satisfied that penalty on our behalf, why then do Christians still suffer that penalty?

This implies, either-

1. Physical death is not a penalty of sin
2. If it is a penalty of sin, then the fact that we all die demonstrates that Christ accomplished nothing

Now, if you know a third, holla.

You can't say that Christ meet that penalty, but then applies it later somehow after we die, because the fact that WE DIED suggests that Christ's payment either wasn't sufficient or accepted at all.

So, your question back at cha – what exactly did Christ’s death accomplish? Assuming you believe that physical death is a penalty for sin, how can Christ suffer that penalty on our behalf and then turn around and have each of us pay it as well?

That is like getting a speeding ticket for which the penalty is 100 buckaroos. My buddy pays the fine for me. But then a week later the court calls and requires me to pay it again...

[OrthodoX]

kingneb said:

alrighty, two-parter

1. Do you believe that physical death is a wage of sin?

I ask this because of your question above. I’m assuming that you believe that Christ’s atonement was effectual and substitutionary. That Christ ACTUALLY did take on the penalty of the elect’s sins in the stead of the elect. (or maybe you don’t believe He died just for the elect, but that’s besides the point for my question)

If that is true – that Christ took upon Himself the penalty of sin on behalf of His people…

2. why then do Christians still physically die?

Let’s put it another way:

If physical death is a penalty of sin and Christ satisfied that penalty on our behalf, why then do Christians still suffer that penalty?

This implies, either-

1. Physical death is not a penalty of sin
2. If it is a penalty of sin, then the fact that we all die demonstrates that Christ accomplished nothing

Now, if you know a third, holla.

3. The work of Christ is a completed yet progressive work that will become most evident at the Consummation of the Kingdom, his final coming.

Christ physical death is not the main issue, it is him becoming sin for us and taking the wrath of God in our stead. The Bible is clear that sin and death are an inseperable pair. Death is a result of sin(Rom. 5 anyone?). We in a way all must suffer the curse of sin even as Christians every day. War, disease, famine. Why did Spurgeon suffer such physical infirmity if Christ died for him? If Christ came to do away with physical death and suffering?

Neb, death in every form is because of Sin, as is all suffering and infirmity, ect. Abortions, cancer, genocide, famine...these can all trace their origins back to the Garden. This is the biblical story.

Now with that said, I do believe that the work of Christ is conquering and did conquer sin and ALL its results. This is what is to come with the Consummation of the Kingdom. When Christ returns he will do away with once and for all , every one of his enemies. There will be a day when we will not cry from pain and sorrow, a day when we will not see sin ravage our loved ones. The longed for "Utopia" of the philosophers that only Jesus can build.

I look forward to this conversation, this is actually the main focus of an article Im researching for.

grace and peace-

DoX

[king neb]

John, thanks for the response.

You asked,

“Why did Spurgeon suffer such physical infirmity if Christ died for him? If Christ came to do away with physical death and suffering?”

Well, your question assumes that Christ came to do away with physical death and suffering in the first place, but you need to demonstrate from the “Biblical Story” that that is indeed the case – until then your question has no bearing.

You are correct in saying that ‘death’ is a result of sin, but the question is – what ‘death’? So we turn to Romans 5:

First, it must be noted that there are types of death. When a plant withers away, we call that ‘death’, but that is obviously not the same thing as the ‘death’ Adam ‘died’ the day he ate of the fruit. (by the way, plants don’t sin…hmmm) We distinguish between physical death and spiritual, which I believe you affirm, for you yourself qualify it above by saying ‘physical’ death.

That being the case, we simply cannot assume that the ‘death’ Adam brought as a result of the sin is either one or both. Just because it says ‘death’, that doesn’t automatically mean ‘physical’ death. You are assuming that, because again, you do not actually demonstrate from the text that that is the case. Now, ‘death’ could mean physical death in Romans 5, but we have to demonstrate why or why not and I don’t think it does for the following reasons:

First thing to note in Romans 5 is simply that nowhere does Paul say that physical death is the result of sin. Seems like too simple of a point, but again, Paul never said that – it’s assumed. Paul did not say that all men physically die because of the sin passing to all men.

Furthermore, you would have a clear contradiction on your hands if it did mean that. Now, you may not have a problem with ‘contradictions’ in the Bible, but I do. I don’t believe there are any. The ‘contradictions’ appear that way because of our faulty reasoning.

Here’s why you’d have one: You are saying that Romans 5 teaches that physical death spread to ALL men. (note ALL) But in I Cor. 15, Paul says,

51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

Saying that physical death spreads to all men clearly contradicts your own teaching that at some future date, Christ will return and those who are alive on the earth will not physically die. You can’t have physical death spreading to ALL men with the possibility of a couple billion people never seeing physical death at some supposed future coming. I asked my former reformed, postmillennial pastor in AL this question and he simply shrugged his shoulders and said, “well, there are exceptions to the rule.” Well, if that’s the case, so much for Romans 5.

Secondly, I believe Paul has a very specific ‘death’ in mind here in Romans 5, namely the ‘death’ Adam died THE DAY he ate of the fruit – spiritual death.

For starters, Paul uses the definite article, ‘the’, when describing this death.

Romans 5:12-14 12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; 13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; 14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

Romans 5:17 17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one,

Romans 5:20-21 20 And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound, 21 that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What ‘the death’ spread to all men in Adam? It’s obviously ‘spiritual death’.

Genesis 2:17 for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Genesis 3:4-5 4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die, 5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

God was not talking about physical death for the simple reason that Adam did not physically die IN THE DAY they ate.

So, ‘spiritual death’ fits the text better because that ‘death’ clearly has passed to ALL men with no exceptions, including the elect prior to their calling (not the case with physical death and your futurism) and the original ‘Biblical Story’ doesn’t say anything about Adam physically dying THAT DAY anyhow. In both Romans 5 and Genesis 3, you’re assuming physical death and reading it into the passage.

Further, you say that physical death is the “result of sin”. To put another way – a person physically dies because of his sin. So physical death is the penalty of sin…but wait a second, AGAIN, what does that do with Jesus’ substitutionary atonement? If Christ has died for my sin so that my sin is not taken into account, ( or rather, HE took it into account in Christ) how then can I suffer the penalty of something that's not taken into account?! That doesn’t make a lick of sense.

Again, an analogy:

A law states that if I drive 50 MPH in a 35, I will pay a penalty of $150.00. One day, Im driving 50 in a 35 and the cop pulls me over and gives me the ticket (judgment) I go home and tell a friend about it and purely out of love for me, he writes out a check and mails it in.

Now, has the penalty been met? Yes. My friend paid it FOR ME. How then, could the court call me a month later and demand another payment? HOW?! Either the payment has been met or it hasn’t. For the court to ask me to pay it suggests that either a) they never got my friend’s check or b) they did get it and are unjustly demanding more penalty contrary to the Law.

So again John, simply saying that Christ’s work is applied later down the road doesn’t work. If YOU physically die (which we all do) and physical death is the penalty of sin, then guess what? Christ didn’t satisfy the penalty.

Whether you put it off now or later doesn’t make a hill of beans to the argument. The fact that YOU WILL PHYSICALLY DIE tells me either one of two things:

1.) Christ’s payment was not sufficient
2.) Or, physical death was never the penalty of ‘the sin’ to begin with

I choose 2. Not only because it makes sense, but physical death is simply not the topic in Romans 5 nor Genesis 3, which you assume anyhow and have not demonstrated that it is.

[DoGMaTiX]

ahhhh, now this is a dope thread.

Good points from both sides but OF COURSE I agree with Dox so far. ;D

I would just briefly say that Christ did satisfy the penalty for physical death and the proof of that would be His ressurection being the firstfruit. We will one day be resurrected and death will be finally conquered.

I don't see a problem with this victory happening later in redemptive history.

Actually its pretty much how Full preterism views the spiritual resurrection victory that Christ accomplished on the cross. This the FP would say Christ did on the cross, right? But Israel was still dead until 70 Ad, right? Then Israel was resurrected(according to FP) at a later date, the FP would not say that the resurrection happened immediately at the cross(at least I don't think so). So it came at a later point in Israels exodus, yes? It could be totally manhandling the FP view so I will let Neb correct me if I'm wrong.

[eternal]

The unsaved do die for eternity, to never share in existence any longer. Only those in Christ have their flesh pass away, but live forever.

[the answer]

eternal said:

The unsaved do die for eternity, to never share in existence any longer. Only those in Christ have their flesh pass away, but live forever.

If this is true then why should we fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell? This "punishment" carries no real threat. They won't experience anything.

As to your question, I think the death on the cross was first and foremost dealing with our spiritual death ( eternal separation) Not sure if I think physical death is a wage of sin...I gotta think about that for a minute. good question

choz

[DoGMaTiX]

admin said:

Not sure if I think physical death is a wage of sin...I gotta think about that for a minute. good question

Answer Read Romans 5. Cause if physical death was not a result of sin then you are on your way to Full preterism, right Neb?

[eternal]

admin said:

eternal said:

The unsaved do die for eternity, to never share in existence any longer. Only those in Christ have their flesh pass away, but live forever.

If this is true then why should we fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell? This "punishment" carries no real threat. They won't experience anything.
choz

Actually, that verse spells out exactly what I just said, God DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell. That is annhialationism spelled out as simply as it can get.

[the answer]

Let me re pharase that, said it wrong

Jesus did pay for Physical death..I'm just not sure how that works out

Thats what i have to think about

[the answer]

eternal said:

admin said:

Actually, that verse spells out exactly what I just said, God DESTROYS BOTH BODY AND SOUL in hell. That is annhialationism spelled out as simply as it can get.

1. Destroy does not always mean "annihilate" . It can also mean conquer, subdue, or punish.

2. How do you "destroy" a soul (which cannot be"killed") in a physical place where only physical bodies are burned and eaten by worms? This proves that "Gehenna" is a place of destruction not only for dead physical bodies, but for "unkillable" souls as well. Gehenna is the final destiny of the souls and bodies of the wicked.

[eternal]

admin said:

1. Destroy does not always mean "annihilate" . It can also mean conquer, subdue, or punish.

2. How do you "destroy" a soul (which cannot be"killed") in a physical place where only physical bodies are burned and eaten by worms? This proves that "Gehenna" is a place of destruction not only for dead physical bodies, but for "unkillable" souls as well. Gehenna is the final destiny of the souls and bodies of the wicked.

1. "Destroy" in this context makes no sense to mean anything other than the primary deffinition. To strengthen this reading then is the plentiful passages likewise describing the end of the unsaved as "perish"(ing) and death in contrast to "eternal life."

2. The only reason you claim that the soul is eternal and "unkillable" is because you have been indoctrinated with Platonian philosophy. Early Christian apologists were well versed in Plato and interpreted the scriptures according to that tradition they were soaked in. Consequently this has been passed on to us ever since. But if you strip away that apriori, then your argument no longer stands. The bible never claims that the soul is eternal, or indestructible. Rather it claims that God will destroy the soul of the unrepentant in hell.

Ghenna was a physical place where items thrown into it was destroyed, either by fire or worm. This physical image served as a consistent metaphor for what is in store for those who do not share in the life of Christ...ultimate destruction. This is the wage of sin. But the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Christ Jesus our Lord.

peace.

[the answer]

I am fimiliar with the 'many' passages and I don't think they mean what you make them to mean. If u want we can look at them.

Let me ask you: Is the soul conscious after it leaves the body? How long until the soul is consumed in hell? 3 years? 5 days? 30 secs?

Jesus saying "fear" makes no sense if all that is gonna happen is annihilation. If u said "answer, FEAR the coming plague. You will be attacked by little bugs. But u can't see them, their bites can't be felt in the slightest, and they are harmless. You won't even know they are there. But FEAR this plague." Doesn't make sense. Yet this is the "threat" Jesus is making in your view? " Beware, I will send u into nothingness?" No one fears nothingness. We can sin sin sin, and our punishment is............going into nothingness?

2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

Why would it be better to die that way then to go into nothingness? Again, what is the real threat here?

If I was a unbeliever and u told me that God's punishment was a banishment into nothingness- I would laugh! Is that really a concern?

It would be like surgury. We don't feel it, yet why do we fear it? Cuz we might wake up,and feel pain

You take eternal life to mean eternal, yet u don't take eternal punishment to be eternal? what up with that eternal? LOL

I think I know what u may say here: The punishment is eternal because they go out of existence forever.

However, we don't punish the guns that kill people, do we? Why not? They don't feel. The whole point of punishment, is for the offender to FEEL pain for their wrong.

In your view, those who curse and rebel against God, will feel no pain. They will never have to reget that they hated the one who could save them. They can just go away into nothingness.

I guess they got what they deserved.

choz

[eternal]

Let me ask you: Is the soul conscious after it leaves the body? How long until the soul is consumed in hell? 3 years? 5 days? 30 secs?

Who knows. There is a judgment, then destruction. Who knows the time frame. That is not important.

Jesus saying "fear" makes no sense if all that is gonna happen is annihilation. If u said "answer, FEAR the coming plague. You will be attacked by little bugs. But u can't see them, their bites can't be felt in the slightest, and they are harmless. You won't even know they are there. But FEAR this plague." Doesn't make sense. Yet this is the "threat" Jesus is making in your view? " Beware, I will send u into nothingness?" No one fears nothingness. We can sin sin sin, and our punishment is............going into nothingness?

Lots of people are afraid of dying, even those who are not religious. People like being alive, and the threat of that permenantly ending is scary for some. We can play your game though with any doctrine, and do the "what if" stuff with it. Point is, what does the scripture say, not what we think could be better. Sin = death. I am sorry if you think not being able to enjoy eternity with Jesus Christ our Lord is not a bad punishment.

If I was a unbeliever and u told me that God's punishment was a banishment into nothingness- I would laugh! Is that really a concern?

If someone comes to God simply because they don't want to suffer for eternity, what kind of Christian are they anyway? I want people to embrace Christ not so they won't suffer, but so they can know the riches of Jesus Christ.

You take eternal life to mean eternal, yet u don't take eternal punishment to be eternal? what up with that eternal? LOL

No, I do take the punishment as eternal, and I already explained that. It is very clear, the punishment is eternal, it will not be revoked. Unfortunately for the traditional view, the two contrasts are eternal life and death/perish/destruction. No where is it eternal good life vs. eternal bad life. That requires massive reconstruction.

However, we don't punish the guns that kill people, do we? Why not? They don't feel. The whole point of punishment, is for the offender to FEEL pain for their wrong.

We don't punish guns because they have no conscience to make decissions. Humans do. However, the bible does teach in a God ordered society swords will be beaten into plowshares...You are very caught up in feeling pain. That is pretty sadistic IMO. It boggles me that someone thinks missing out on Jesus Christ for eternity is not bad enough, but we must bust them in the head with hot iron pokers to really make them suffer.

Nothing compares to Christ. Likewise, nothing compares to not having Christ.


The reason this was brought up though, was to explain the "physical death" question. Maybe your view still needs some work.

peace.

[the answer]

You must have a computer at home now..LOL No more Library?? lol

Lots of people are afraid of dying, even those who are not religious. People like being alive, and the threat of that permenantly ending is scary for some. We can play your game though with any doctrine, and do the "what if" stuff with it. Point is, what does the scripture say, not what we think could be better. Sin = death. I am sorry if you think not being able to enjoy eternity with Jesus Christ our Lord is not a bad punishment

Dying is one thing. Dying and then going into non existance is another. In a sense, I'm afraid of dying. More because of the pain that could be involved...but I know where I'm going so the fear isn't that strong. My point is that Jesus' threat isn't all that big, if all we do is go into non existence.

If someone comes to God simply because they don't want to suffer for eternity, what kind of Christian are they anyway? I want people to embrace Christ not so they won't suffer, but so they can know the riches of Jesus Christ

Sin must be punished, that is why we flee to Jesus. To be saved from the wrath to come. Jesus many times made this clear. The most important issue is that our sins need to be atoned for, not experienceing the riches of Christ.. That comes after!

No where is it eternal good life vs. eternal bad life. That requires massive reconstruction.

You are right! The bible says eternal life and eternal punishment. Never says bad life.

We don't punish guns because they have no conscience to make decissions. Humans do. However, the bible does teach in a God ordered society swords will be beaten into plowshares...You are very caught up in feeling pain. That is pretty sadistic IMO. It boggles me that someone thinks missing out on Jesus Christ for eternity is not bad enough, but we must bust them in the head with hot iron pokers to really make them suffer.

Nothing compares to Christ. Likewise, nothing compares to not having Christ.

What do u think punishment is then? I confused. What is your definition?

Webster says : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

What's your definition?

Those in hell will FOREVER be without Christ. That is one of the horrors of it.! So u are right about that! An eternity without Christ, sucks. But only if you know it. In your view, they won't know it.

The reason this was brought up though, was to explain the "physical death" question. Maybe your view still needs some work.

My view on annihilationism needs no work. Now my view according to Nebs question, I dunno, I'd say yes a wage of sin is physical death. But The question is, was that what Jesus was paying for...Physical death or spiritual?

[DoGMaTiX]

admin said:

But The question is, was that what Jesus was paying for...Physical death or spiritual?

Both for we are resurrected spiritually/regenerated and then at the end of redemptive history will be resurrected physically thats why Jesus resurrected.

one

[eternal]

You must have a computer at home now..LOL No more Library?? lol

For about 2 months now.

My point is that Jesus' threat isn't all that big, if all we do is go into non existence.

Well that is an opinion based doctrine then. Shoot, we can say that burning flesh isn't that bad, and instead they should be drowned forever! Being burned is a breeze!

You are right! The bible says eternal life and eternal punishment. Never says bad life.

And how many times does it say "eternal punishment?" HOw many times? That is a real question, do a search. Then how many times does it say "death?" "Perish?" "Destroy?" Death is the main word used over and over again, and it is only PLATO who began this doctrine of an immortal soul, and "death" began to be redefined among the faithful. In Christ, we live even though we die. If you are not in Christ, you just die (Jn. 11:25f).

What do u think punishment is then? I confused. What is your definition?

Just as you wrote: Webster says : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

Those in hell will FOREVER be without Christ. That is one of the horrors of it.! So u are right about that! An eternity without Christ, sucks. But only if you know it. In your view, they won't know it.

They will be judged, and then wiped away for eternity. They will know it at their judgment. And then...

Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

eccl. 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. "

Psalm 104:29-30 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Psalm 146:3-4 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

But The question is, was that what Jesus was paying for...Physical death or spiritual?

Well see at this time of my understanding I don't have to make a split like others do. Because we either live forever or we do not.

Now, death has manifestations such as sin, and we are plagued by this, and Christ's victory has domnion over all of death, even the sin realm.

peace.