I would just briefly say that Christ did satisfy the penalty for physical death and the proof of that would be His ressurection being the firstfruit. We will one day be resurrected and death will be finally conquered.
I don't see a problem with this victory happening later in redemptive history.
Rick, I don’t believe you are seeing the implications here. Again, WHEN this penalty is ‘applied’ or not is not my point. That is merely a further problem caused later in the argument.
Let me explain by breaking down your sentence: “Christ did satisfy the penalty for physical death”
A ‘penalty’ is, according to Webster’s, a “suffering in person, rights, or property that is annexed by law or judicial decision to the commission of a crime or public offense.”
So, in your framework and in the words of websters, you would say that a person ‘suffers’ physical death because of the ‘crime’ of disobedience to God’s Law, correct? It is a price that WE pay for sinning, correct?
Now then, if Christ ‘suffered’ the penalty of the Law (physical death) ON OUR BEHALF (substitutionary atonement for the elect), why then are Christians still PAYING THE PENALTY OF SIN? (the elect still physically die) (caps for emphasis, not screaming)
I feel that neither you nor John have come anywhere close to dealing with this huge problem. Again, simply putting the application off into the future doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is the undeniable truth that eventually you will physically die!
Again, the illustration: if the penalty for a speeding ticket is $100 and my friend pays that fine for me, how then can a judge demand $100 from me as well?
Here’s the scenario you paint for us with futurism: My friend pays the $100 and satisfies the penalty, but 40 years later the court calls my home and demands another $100 from me.
If it is true that physical death is the penalty of sin, and if it is true that Christ satisfied that penalty on behalf of the elect, to say then that the elect still must physically die is to make HIS PAYMENT null and void.
Again, simply arguing for a ‘future application’ is not dealing with the argument above, for it avoids the painfully obvious truth that WE STILL PHYSICALLY DIE.
To further the illustration to parallel your futurism: not only do I pay the $100 after my friend paid it already, but then another 60 years later or so the judge refunds my $100.
Now, why would he refund the money? What, did the first payment from my friend finally get processed and the judge realized he got paid twice? Did the first one get lost in the mail? What gives?
Rick, to successfully deal with this argument, you are going to have to explain why we physically die, period – whether now or later, makes no difference.
“Actually its pretty much how Full preterism views the spiritual resurrection victory that Christ accomplished on the cross. This the FP would say Christ did on the cross, right? But Israel was still dead until 70 Ad, right? Then Israel was resurrected(according to FP) at a later date, the FP would not say that the resurrection happened immediately at the cross(at least I don't think so). So it came at a later point in Israels exodus, yes? It could be totally manhandling the FP view so I will let Neb correct me if I'm wrong.”Actually, we believe that the Spirit’s work of drawing the elect into the Kingdom and New Covenant through the preaching of the Gospel during that covenantal transitional period (30-70) is what Paul calls the “Resurrection”. It was what a covenantally dead Israel longed for.
Ezekiel 37:11-12 11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our
hope is lost; we are clean cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Therefore, it is not correct to say that we teach that Israel was ‘dead until ad 70’. Israel was in
the process of BEING MADE ALIVE. This was a process that spanned the 40 years.
Romans 11:25-27 25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:1 a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
(btw, see the number of ‘orthodox’ men who believe this was fulfilled in ad70 – Demar, Jordan)
Hence, Paul’s present tense in I Cor. 15:
1 Corinthians 15:35 35 But some one will say, 'How do the dead rise?
1 Corinthians 15:42 42 So also is the rising again of the dead:
1 Corinthians 15:26 26 the last enemy is done away -- death;
1 Corinthians 15:57 thanks, to Him who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ;
As I have asked before: if Paul is talking about ‘physical’ death, how is physical death currently being ‘done away’ with? What, is Moses’ corpse ‘partially alive’?! What does physical death ‘being done away with’ look like? No, futurist can answer this.
Furthermore, Jesus’ ‘Resurrection’ appearances SIGNIFIED that the Harvest had come! He was it’s Firstfruit.
Jesus told His disciples: Matthew 9:37-38 37 then saith he to his disciples, 'The harvest indeed is abundant, but the workmen few; 38 beseech ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he may put forth workmen to His harvest.'
Rick has Christ as the Firstfruit, signifying that the harvest is ready, yet, Christ has stalled His gathering for 2,000 years and counting.
Rick stalls it (not Scripture) only because he assumes the physical death part to begin with (which hasn't been demonstrated from Romans 5), a supposed penalty of which he'll say that Christ has already paid for!
Im sorry..too many problems for me.
