Hip hop head explain this

[HIPHOPHEAD]

what's good lu?! I'm glad you dropped by. I'll get on this asap...

[HIPHOPHEAD]

Anyways, let me get to my scriptures I have for both sides of the subject.

HHH, you mentioned earlier that only the voice was for John, then please explain the other account(s) of God's powerful voice which others clearly heard:

John 12:27-29 - Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. - Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. - The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

(You could have the same reasoning for this scripture as well... but that doesn't explain Jesus praying to the Father, and then a voice comes from Heaven that sounded like thunder, that whoever was near heard it.)

The reasoning is pretty much the same. Matter of fact it says so in verse 30. All Jesus praying was him putting his being human and putting his flesh under the subjection of God's will.

HHH and the answer, concerning if Jesus is God:
2 John 1:3 - Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

(Doesn't that clearly state that God is the Father, and Jesus is Lord and the son of the Father, which the Father is our God. Then John clearly states: ...in truth and love.)

Revelation 7:10 - And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

(Seperation?... they must be two different persons. And then not only does it not just say Salvation to our God, but it also says unto the Lamb... why didn't he just leave it saying God, since they are both God?)

Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

(Again, same question... why didn't he just leave it saying God, since they are both God?... cause he could have just stopped it at God, but no he went on to say: and of the Lamb.)

And what about all these verses: Romans 1:7 ~ 1 Corinthians 1:3 ~ 2 Corinthians 1:2 ~ Ephesians 1:2 ~ Philippians 1:2 ~ Colossians 1:2 ~ 1 Thessalonians 1:1 ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:2 ~ 1 Timothy 1:2 ~ Philemon 1:3 ~ Galatians 1:1 ~ Galatians 1:3 ~ Ephesians 6:23 ~ Philippians 2:11 ~ 2 Timothy 1:2 ~ Titus 1:4 ~ 1 Peter 1:2 ~ 2 Peter 1:17 ~ Jude 1:1

Jesus is called God in the old testament fam. Not only is he called God, he's called the Father in Isaiah 9:6. And he is called God in the new testament; Matt. 1:23, John 1:1,14.

Now as far as the two examples in Revelation. Understand what lamb is giving reference too, and what it symbolized. It has to do with Jesus being the sacrifice for men's sins. Because if look Jesus is the one on the throne as well. Now as for the 1 John reference and many of the others you put seperation between divinity and humanity. I've already showed you in scripture where Jesus was called God. But Jesus' death was his humanity dying, not his divinity. So the seperation is operational, not in personage.

Jesus is definitely God. In Colossian 2:9 It says in him dwelt the FULLNESS divine nature (Godhead) in bodily form.

Even Stephen proclaimed the seperation of the Mighty God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord:

Acts 7:55 - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

(Jesus standing on the right hand of God?... how can that be, I thought Jesus is God? Some will take you to verse 59 only, which says: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." That does not imply that Jesus is God, just states Stephen was calling upon God and saying Lord Jesus recieve my spirit. Read those scriptures around it as well, to get a better understanding.)

Ok, here's a common mis-conception. "Right hand of God" is not a physical place. (I showed earlier how Jesus is the one referenced as being on the throne). "Right hand of God" speaks of a position of Power (matt 28:18). That saying is like a Hebrew idiom. The "Right hand of God" references his power (Psalm 48:10, Isaiah 41:10, Acts 5:31).

Why so much seperation, and why never saying: Jesus our God, or God our Son... or God the Son. Cause God is the Father Jesus speaks of, and Jesus is our Lord... not our God. Lets give respect due pay to our Father which is in Heaven by naming Him God the only true God... Jesus is the only true son of God, who died for our sins and was found suitable for his posistions he received from God. To top it off, Jesus also recognized God our Father as his God as well.

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Don't forget Isaiah 9:6. I agree Jesus called Our God his Father and God. That's what's so unique about Jesus man! Jesus was undoubtely God(John 1:1), yet that same God became a man (John 1:14). Jesus is both the God the creator of the fleshly body of Jesus and the man who gave up the life of his fleshly body as a sacrifice for our sins.

One question for you tho. Since you don't think Jesus is God. Do you think he was just a man? or what? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

Holla

[DoGMaTiX]

Man! I don't know who to anwser here first, lol

I would definately agree with HHH on the passages of Jesus as God.

more soon.........

[HIPHOPHEAD]

i look forward to your response bruh.

[ludawg]

hiphophead said:

The reasoning is pretty much the same. Matter of fact it says so in verse 30. All Jesus praying was him putting his being human and putting his flesh under the subjection of God's will.

Praying to himself... got ya.

Jesus is called God in the old testament fam. Not only is he called God, he's called the Father in Isaiah 9:6. And he is called God in the new testament; Matt. 1:23, John 1:1,14.

This still does not answer the seperation, as I'll point out more in a sec... as you have answered the Lamb stuff (to your liking, which makes sence if you don't read the other scriptures), but there is scripture that seperates God and Jesus in revelation, not only mentioning power, but both as seperate people. I can see your side of the view on most things, but then again Isaiah never said he is God... neither did Matt... neither did John... other two said he will be called (never said he is), John said he was, never said he is). John is speaking a "spoking thought", as you can see he clearly did not use the name "Jesus", but used "Word". Jesus is referenced as the Word, cause he earned that posistion... as stated in scripture, as well as the other called names you might want to recognize, like in Isaiah it said he is called... he receives those names cause for the most part he is the only begotten son of God, therefore passing His(God) name down to his son. You never once seen Jesus say, I am God... but he always viewed God as his God and Father, you never once read that he(Jesus) was called Father either. Because being Jesus he didn't want to make himself God, as he even recognized his Father was greater than he.

(Concerning he received the name's by inheritance "not to say he is God"
Hebrews 1:4 - Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

(He also received what he has received, because he was found worthy to receive such great honor and authority:)
Hebrews 5:7 - Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

"Though he is God's Son, he still learned obedience?... was made perfect?... he became the author of eternal salvation?" (I've heard some say, Jesus was perfect from the beginning, yet scripture says he was made perfect through him learning obedience.) (Just like Jesus said, "be ye perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect"... he meant that, cause he himself learned obedience as well, which made him perfect.)

Now as far as the two examples in Revelation. Understand what lamb is giving reference too, and what it symbolized. It has to do with Jesus being the sacrifice for men's sins. Because if look Jesus is the one on the throne as well. Now as for the 1 John reference and many of the others you put seperation between divinity and humanity. I've already showed you in scripture where Jesus was called God. But Jesus' death was his humanity dying, not his divinity. So the seperation is operational, not in personage.

Jesus was putting to death his humanity, as we all ought to be doing. This does not make us God... no Jesus never sinned, but that's cause he knew God even before he was born, he even said he exsisted before Abraham... but I'm not saying he couldn't have sinned, he could have, but knowing God to the fullest of him being so real to him, cause he knew without a shadow of a doubt that God is real, cause he's his Son. I'm not saying that don't make Jesus special, it makes him the most special person in the whole universe.

Jesus is definitely God. In Colossian 2:9 It says in him dwelt the FULLNESS divine nature (Godhead) in bodily form.

Fa sho, he's the son of God. And God's fulness dwells in him. Why wouldn't God dwell in him?... he's his Son :-)... but I don't think we are discussing that issue. My question is, since you don't believe in three unique persons, then why you can't see the seperation in that scripture alone? Cause it speaks of a Godhead, which that means there is a God the Father, and a Son.

Ok, here's a common mis-conception. "Right hand of God" is not a physical place. (I showed earlier how Jesus is the one referenced as being on the throne). "Right hand of God" speaks of a position of Power (matt 28:18). That saying is like a Hebrew idiom. The "Right hand of God" references his power (Psalm 48:10, Isaiah 41:10, Acts 5:31).

Again, this speaks of a seperation... meaning that Jesus also received this power. If he was always God he didn't need to receive the power... which he very distinctly says he received all he knew and learned from God our Father.

Don't forget Isaiah 9:6. I agree Jesus called Our God his Father and God. That's what's so unique about Jesus man! Jesus was undoubtely God(John 1:1), yet that same God became a man (John 1:14). Jesus is both the God the creator of the fleshly body of Jesus and the man who gave up the life of his fleshly body as a sacrifice for our sins.

I don't get that out of those scriptures, never once did they say Jesus is God... they said, "was called", or the "Word was God". But in your words, Jesus was basicly lieing?... since he said he was going to be with his Father and God, but yet he is the Father and God... so therefore he had to be lieing. I don't believe that by the way ... Jesus told the truth, his words are truth.

One question for you tho. Since you don't think Jesus is God. Do you think he was just a man? or what? Just trying to see where you're coming from.

He was just a man, but not just any man... he is the son of God. I'll prove this by just one scripture, which as well seperates the two, and puts Jesus in the middle of men and God as a mediator:

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(More seperation, clearly stated)
Ephesians 5:5 - For this ye know, that no sleepermonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Ok now to Revelation... you said it meant a certain special thing as of the Lamb... I guess that just means since it didn't mention any seperation it didn't mean they were seperate:

(The very beginning of the book comfirms the seperation, and even comfirms Jesus does not know all things... but only what his Father teaches him "which Jesus said many of times in the Gospels"

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What, that just say?... The Revelation of whom? (Jesus Christ), who gave him the revelation? (God), read it again... God is good, Jesus is my loving Master for giving his Life for me, so I can be obedient to God and Jesus as well, and be part of one of God's children.

I'm not boasting my brother in Christ, but I get so happy when God shows me these things... I'm hopeing he's showing you guys the samething. Did anyone else see what God just showed me?... anyone? Man I'm astonished, cause I've heard people say that the reason Jesus said "he didn't know the hour of his coming", was because he was flesh... but then John writes Revelation 1:1... comfirming that the Father still had to tell him what's to come, which Jesus sent an Angel to tell John to write it down. Sweetness!


-Grace and Peace to you all from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of the Father. Amen.-

[HIPHOPHEAD]

To Roldan: When you respond to me man, maybe you should start a new thread so it won't get confusing.

[HIPHOPHEAD]

I seemed to be hint a bit of sarcasm in your post. lol. It's cool, but just so you know I'm not trying to trick you, and I'm not twisting any scripture. But I'll continue.

Praying to himself... got ya.

lol. If that's how'd you like to see it.

This still does not answer the seperation, as I'll point out more in a sec... as you have answered the Lamb stuff (to your liking, which makes sence if you don't read the other scriptures), but there is scripture that seperates God and Jesus in revelation, not only mentioning power, but both as seperate people. I can see your side of the view on most things, but then again Isaiah never said he is God... neither did Matt... neither did John... other two said he will be called (never said he is), John said he was, never said he is). John is speaking a "spoking thought", as you can see he clearly did not use the name "Jesus", but used "Word". Jesus is referenced as the Word, cause he earned that posistion... as stated in scripture, as well as the other called names you might want to recognize, like in Isaiah it said he is called... he receives those names cause for the most part he is the only begotten son of God, therefore passing His(God) name down to his son. You never once seen Jesus say, I am God... but he always viewed God as his God and Father, you never once read that he(Jesus) was called Father either. Because being Jesus he didn't want to make himself God, as he even recognized his Father was greater than he.

Where does it say he earned that position? I'm not sure what you mean by "as you have answered the Lamb stuff (to your liking, which makes sence if you don't read the other scriptures)". I'm not sure what part would only make sense when disregarding other scripture. In the scripture there's lots of symbolism, and especially in Revelation. More questions about Jesus being God later. Question for you, If Jesus is not the mighty God why would GOD have his prophet say that's what he would be called? That's confusing. Next you said "John said he was, never said he is". Ok, if he WAS God, when did he stop BEING God?

You also said "he receives those names cause for the most part he is the only begotten son of God, therefore passing His(God) name down to his son." Realize that "begotten" has to do with Jesus natural birth through Mary (Humanity = Role in Sonship). Now here something that Jews understood, and that's that the ONLY person that could possess God's titles is GOD Himself. That's why in John 8:58 they sought to stone him. Also, in John 10:33. Notice Jesus didn't deny their accusation of "You being a man maketh yourself God". If he isn't God like you say, shouldn't he have squashed it right there?! And there would have been no confusion? Not only that God(the Father) said that he would NOT give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11) Yet Jesus has his glory? He didn't say another besides my Son, he said another PERIOD.

Also "you never once read that he(Jesus) was called Father either." He's called the Father in Isaiah 9:6. Next, in his sonship role he wasn't called Father because he told them not too. (Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.") Jesus SONSHIP role was in his human nature, not his divine nature.

"Because being Jesus he didn't want to make himself God". Jesus didn't have to make himself what he already was. Philipians 2:6.. Jesus purpose as a MAN on earth was to be a perfect MAN therefore enabling him to be the perfect HUMAN sacrifice.

"as he even recognized his Father was greater than he." Amen, in his SONSHIP role that is completely true.

I think it's also worthy to mention that Paul tells us in Acts 20:28 that God purchased us with His Blood. Now it tells us that repeated times before that etc etc the Blood of Christ, etc. But here it places the ownership of the blood on God.

(Concerning he received the name's by inheritance "not to say he is God"
Hebrews 1:4 - Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Don't sleep on the verse 8 of the same chapter.

(He also received what he has received, because he was found worthy to receive such great honor and authority:)
Hebrews 5:7 - Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

"Though he is God's Son, he still learned obedience?... was made perfect?... he became the author of eternal salvation?" (I've heard some say, Jesus was perfect from the beginning, yet scripture says he was made perfect through him learning obedience.) (Just like Jesus said, "be ye perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect"... he meant that, cause he himself learned obedience as well, which made him perfect.)

Amen, this was all done is his SONSHIP role. Son=Humanity. But Jesus wasn't just human.

Jesus was putting to death his humanity, as we all ought to be doing. This does not make us God... no Jesus never sinned, but that's cause he knew God even before he was born, he even said he exsisted before Abraham... but I'm not saying he couldn't have sinned, he could have, but knowing God to the fullest of him being so real to him, cause he knew without a shadow of a doubt that God is real, cause he's his Son. I'm not saying that don't make Jesus special, it makes him the most special person in the whole universe.

Yes, Jesus putting to death his humanity were examples for us on how to be a perfect person. But i never said that's what made him God.

Fa sho, he's the son of God. And God's fulness dwells in him. Why wouldn't God dwell in him?... he's his Son ... but I don't think we are discussing that issue. My question is, since you don't believe in three unique persons, then why you can't see the seperation in that scripture alone? Cause it speaks of a Godhead, which that means there is a God the Father, and a Son.

Lu, you're making the same interpretation as trinitarians concerning Godhead. Godhead has nothing to do with persons. Godhead means "DIVINE NATURE" or "ATTRIBUTES THAT MAKE GOD, GOD" the only person that has DIVINE attributes is GOD, otherwise there's more than one. We (as Children of God) don't have those attributes because we aren't God. What Colossians 2:9 is basically saying is Jesus is GOD in FLESH (John 1:14). That's what the Jews realized on those occaision. The only way for GOD to have a HUMAN son, is for GOD himself to be in flesh. Because no Godly title can be attributed to anyone BUT God Himself.

Again, this speaks of a seperation... meaning that Jesus also received this power. If he was always God he didn't need to receive the power... which he very distinctly says he received all he knew and learned from God our Father.

Amen. In his SONSHIP role, yes.

I don't get that out of those scriptures, never once did they say Jesus is God... they said, "was called", or the "Word was God". But in your words, Jesus was basicly lieing?... since he said he was going to be with his Father and God, but yet he is the Father and God... so therefore he had to be lieing. I don't believe that by the way ... Jesus told the truth, his words are truth.

Think about this, the only person that is to be called God is who?! God. So, if someone is called GOD, and their not God then why would they call him God?! He was not only called God, he was called "THE FATHER". If Jesus is the WORD (and he is) and the Word is God, the either Isaiah and John didn't know what they were talking about (which would make them liars, and they were God's prophets.) or Jesus is God. Even God called Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8). If God referring to Jesus called him God, yet God says He knows no other "GOD" (Isaiah 43:10, 44:8). So if Jesus wasn't God then Hebrews 1:8 is incorrect. As well as the other verses I mentioned. Isaiah 44:6 says that God is "the first and the last", Jesus calls himself the first and the last in Revelation 1:17-18. Can their be two first and last?

And no, he wasn't lying. And nothing that I said would make him a liar. Show me what i said that would make Jesus' words that you gave reference to a lie?

He was just a man, but not just any man... he is the son of God. I'll prove this by just one scripture, which as well seperates the two, and puts Jesus in the middle of men and God as a mediator:

So what you say Jesus is just a man? Ok, so he was a man that existed before Abraham. The question is what was Jesus before he was born?! He couldn't have been a man. Because the scripture says he "BECAME" flesh. So what was he before? He could not have been just a man, matter of fact it says in Hebrews 2:9 that he was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Meaning the purpose of his humanity (John 1:14) was so that he could be a sacrifice for sin. So, he wasn't always a man, even if he was a special one.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

AMEN, I completely agree. Yet he was also the creator the world. More than just a man.

(More seperation, clearly stated)
Ephesians 5:5 - For this ye know, that no sleepermonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Amen. "CHRIST" means Messiah and give reference to Jesus as a human "Savior". And let's talk about that. Jesus is called our savior, Yet GOD (the Father) said that HE(God) is our ONLY saviour (Isaiah 43:11). So either Jesus is God, God changed (and we know He doesn't), or that verse of scripture isn't true either.

Ok now to Revelation... you said it meant a certain special thing as of the Lamb... I guess that just means since it didn't mention any seperation it didn't mean they were seperate:

What i said, is it was symbolic. Jesus isn't an actual LAMB. I'm sure you would agree with me there. At least I'd hope.

(The very beginning of the book comfirms the seperation, and even comfirms Jesus does not know all things... but only what his Father teaches him "which Jesus said many of times in the Gospels"

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What, that just say?... The Revelation of whom? (Jesus Christ), who gave him the revelation? (God), read it again... God is good, Jesus is my loving Master for giving his Life for me, so I can be obedient to God and Jesus as well, and be part of one of God's children.

I'm not boasting my brother in Christ, but I get so happy when God shows me these things... I'm hopeing he's showing you guys the samething. Did anyone else see what God just showed me?... anyone? Man I'm astonished, cause I've heard people say that the reason Jesus said "he didn't know the hour of his coming", was because he was flesh... but then John writes Revelation 1:1... comfirming that the Father still had to tell him what's to come, which Jesus sent an Angel to tell John to write it down. Sweetness!

Amen, Jesus in His Sonship role did not know everything.

[ludawg]

Ok I see your points... I'll get more into the questions you asked me, as soon as possible. But I do have some real quick questions for you. You said in his Sonship role he does not know everything... yet doesn't Oneness believers believe that he is now fully God?... or should I say always was, but viewing Revelation 1:1... after Jesus was caught up into Heaven, you still see that God still gave Jesus what to tell his servents of what is to come. So since God still had to tell him, and you clearly see the distinction there, why does God still have to tell him?... but wait, Jesus is God... so who's this God that John is talking about, that told Jesus what is to come?

Also please explain this scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 = Then cometh the end, when he(Jesus Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yeah I admit I was a bit sarcastic, my bad, sorry... I just can't see the reason why I must believe Jesus is God when the Bible only speaks of believing in him as the son of God to be saved, several times as well, by even Jesus. I know you are feeling the same way... but we both think we know the answers . Anyways I'll answer the rest of your questions later, as for Hebrews 1:8... I've did some studying, and I've read that the Greek word they used there for representing Jesus as God was not to say he is God, but to represent his power and authority. Again I'm not sure, but my question is: How could God even have a God?, and why must God have a God?... then again that question isn't for you, as I know you would just say something like, "Well see Jesus is God, so it makes since to me." , heheh... but even that don't explain God speaking to himself... see I can see Trinity before I can see Oneness... but even Trinity has it's flaws. We must not look at the roles we play, but at what the Bible says. I try not to read with a one mindedness, but a open mind to learn whatever God wants to show me. Then again we could all say the samething... and then again talking to someone on the net isn't like talking to someone one on one. On the net especially we wouldn't know if the person is just trying to confuse the other person, or vise versa. I know you know what I'm talking about. So I wander if it's any use to even discuss things. But I'm willing to learn, so tell me, how you view those scriptures I asked about. -thanks-

[HIPHOPHEAD]

"You said in his Sonship role he does not know everything... yet doesn't Oneness believers believe that he is now fully God?... or should I say always was, but viewing Revelation 1:1... after Jesus was caught up into Heaven, you still see that God still gave Jesus what to tell his servents of what is to come. So since God still had to tell him, and you clearly see the distinction there, why does God still have to tell him?... but wait, Jesus is God... so who's this God that John is talking about, that told Jesus what is to come?"

Amen my friend the sonship "role" has/had not ended yet. and you explained that with your next scripture.

"Also please explain this scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 = Then cometh the end, when he(Jesus Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Now, you see in the 28th verse how it references "SON"? SON, having to do with Jesus' HUMANITY/SONSHIP role. That's another issue i have with trinity. With so-called co-equality, yet we have this exchange of power with temporary superiority? Doesn't make any sense, especially when certain attributes can only be applied to ONE person (scripturally speaking). And if Jesus isn't God, then i really can't see due to reasons/scripture I've previously stated.

"Yeah I admit I was a bit sarcastic, my bad, sorry... I just can't see the reason why I must believe Jesus is God when the Bible only speaks of believing in him as the son of God to be saved, several times as well, by even Jesus. I know you are feeling the same way... but we both think we know the answers . Anyways I'll answer the rest of your questions later, as for Hebrews 1:8... I've did some studying, and I've read that the Greek word they used there for representing Jesus as God was not to say he is God, but to represent his power and authority."

Yeah, I believe that someone at HolyCultureRadio was the one who said that. What I do believe is that the scripture clearly shows that Jesus is God, and after careful studying that conclusion is come too. Now you said "as for Hebrews 1:8... I've did some studying, and I've read that the Greek word they used there for representing Jesus as God was not to say he is God, but to represent his power and authority." Now i have the same issue as before. Only one person can have the position/represented in the position of God, and if the person in that position is not God then there's a problem.

"Again I'm not sure, but my question is: How could God even have a God?, and why must God have a God?... then again that question isn't for you, as I know you would just say something like, "Well see Jesus is God, so it makes since to me." , heheh... but even that don't explain God speaking to himself... see I can see Trinity before I can see Oneness... but even Trinity has it's flaws."

LOL. True that is more of a question for trinitarians. One of the many reasons it doesn't make sense; not to mention that Trinity says about God something that Bible never says about God. Maybe roldan will explain that in his thread to me *SMILE* . However, i must say you over simplified how i would respond to the question. What i would say is, #1. God doesn't have a God. #2. All humanity has a God and Jesus was human. #3. Jesus is more than human. He's God. Therefore, by having the nature of both Divinity and Humanity both claims are correct but only in one instance or the other not in both. Now you said you could see trinity before you oneness, but the problem then would be me asking you where in the Bible does God or anyone else say that God is more than one person?. But that's for another thread. That hopefully roldan will start soon *AHEM*.

"We must not look at the roles we play, but at what the Bible says. I try not to read with a one mindedness, but a open mind to learn whatever God wants to show me. Then again we could all say the samething... and then again talking to someone on the net isn't like talking to someone one on one. On the net especially we wouldn't know if the person is just trying to confuse the other person, or vise versa. I know you know what I'm talking about. So I wander if it's any use to even discuss things. But I'm willing to learn, so tell me, how you view those scriptures I asked about. -thanks-"

Not sure what you mean by looking at the roles we play. But yeah, I'm definitely willing to learn and look at stuff from different angles. Just as long as the scripture is there to back it up. This is a cool convo so far.

[ludawg]

hiphophead said:

Where does it say he earned that position? I'm not sure what you mean by "as you have answered the Lamb stuff (to your liking, which makes sence if you don't read the other scriptures)". I'm not sure what part would only make sense when disregarding other scripture. In the scripture there's lots of symbolism, and especially in Revelation. More questions about Jesus being God later. Question for you, If Jesus is not the mighty God why would GOD have his prophet say that's what he would be called? That's confusing. Next you said "John said he was, never said he is". Ok, if he WAS God, when did he stop BEING God?

I hardly said he was... I was making a point... John never said Jesus was, only said the Word was... even though many can take that scripture and say it means Jesus... why didn't John just use the name Jesus there?, because he did not literally mean it to be Jesus, but as a symbolism... it gets deep, as I mentioned earlier in another post "Spoken Word". You can also go down a little ways and John confirms that Jesus is indeed not God... as well as in other scriptures by John I'm sure:

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

You also said "he receives those names cause for the most part he is the only begotten son of God, therefore passing His(God) name down to his son." Realize that "begotten" has to do with Jesus natural birth through Mary (Humanity = Role in Sonship). Now here something that Jews understood, and that's that the ONLY person that could possess God's titles is GOD Himself. That's why in John 8:58 they sought to stone him. Also, in John 10:33. Notice Jesus didn't deny their accusation of "You being a man maketh yourself God". If he isn't God like you say, shouldn't he have squashed it right there?! And there would have been no confusion? Not only that God(the Father) said that he would NOT give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11) Yet Jesus has his glory? He didn't say another besides my Son, he said another PERIOD.

Concerning John 10:33... he did confirm what he meant, they took it as him making himself God... but he said to restore truth, and not lies as they said "He maketh himself God" - "36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Samething answers John 8:58, they took it as Jesus claiming to be God... tell me, why didn't the writers emphasize the "I AM" Jesus said, as they did in the OT?

Also "you never once read that he(Jesus) was called Father either." He's called the Father in Isaiah 9:6. Next, in his sonship role he wasn't called Father because he told them not too. (Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.") Jesus SONSHIP role was in his human nature, not his divine nature.

See you say sonship role... but yet that doesn't explain Revelation 1:1, as he is no longer in his human nature... as he did ascend back into Heaven to be with his Father. Please explain.

"Because being Jesus he didn't want to make himself God". Jesus didn't have to make himself what he already was. Philipians 2:6.. Jesus purpose as a MAN on earth was to be a perfect MAN therefore enabling him to be the perfect HUMAN sacrifice.

Did you know that Paul was telling us to be like minded, and think just like Christ did. As we should find it not robbery to be equal with God, aren't we now Children of God?... so therefore we are suppose to be in the form of God, taking on his Character... as being perfect, like minded as Christ. Read the verse before Phil. 2:6...

Philippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

...11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As we aren't suppose to not only believe Jesus is Lord the son of God, but also be like minded, as to walk, act, and think the same way Christ did, to the fulness of glorifying God our Father. As we ought to have the fulness of God in us, as God's Spirit dwells in us, right... to give us a mind as of Christ which is God's mind?

"as he even recognized his Father was greater than he." Amen, in his SONSHIP role that is completely true.

hhhmmmmm.., tell me where in the Bible does it say: "Sonship role".

I think it's also worthy to mention that Paul tells us in Acts 20:28 that God purchased us with His Blood. Now it tells us that repeated times before that etc etc the Blood of Christ, etc. But here it places the ownership of the blood on God.

God's blood, it is his Blood. When you have a child, isn't your blood passed to him?... don't we call our children, our own flesh and blood. God did purchase us with his own blood, his own son.

Yes, Jesus putting to death his humanity were examples for us on how to be a perfect person. But i never said that's what made him God.

True, but you are hinting at him putting away his human traights per say... question, so I am not confused on what your getting at. What do you mean?... like Jesus after his resurrection is now fully God, and has put away his humanity? But that wouldn't make since, cause where is the true God without human origin, in all this? Please explain.

Lu, you're making the same interpretation as trinitarians concerning Godhead. Godhead has nothing to do with persons. Godhead means "DIVINE NATURE" or "ATTRIBUTES THAT MAKE GOD, GOD" the only person that has DIVINE attributes is GOD, otherwise there's more than one. We (as Children of God) don't have those attributes because we aren't God. What Colossians 2:9 is basically saying is Jesus is GOD in FLESH (John 1:14). That's what the Jews realized on those occaision. The only way for GOD to have a HUMAN son, is for GOD himself to be in flesh. Because no Godly title can be attributed to anyone BUT God Himself.

So God couldn't speak a Word and say be it done, and Mary received a Child and it was thus Jesus the son of God? When God speaks a Word it is planted as a seed, as Christians who speek the Word. In John 1 it is God speaking a thought therefore planting a Seed into Mary (just another way of explaining it). Therefore all God's traights and what God taught Jesus, was passed on to Jesus... as any Human Father to any son.

Think about this, the only person that is to be called God is who?! God. So, if someone is called GOD, and their not God then why would they call him God?! He was not only called God, he was called "THE FATHER". If Jesus is the WORD (and he is) and the Word is God, the either Isaiah and John didn't know what they were talking about (which would make them liars, and they were God's prophets.) or Jesus is God. Even God called Jesus God (Hebrews 1:8). If God referring to Jesus called him God, yet God says He knows no other "GOD" (Isaiah 43:10, 44:8). So if Jesus wasn't God then Hebrews 1:8 is incorrect. As well as the other verses I mentioned. Isaiah 44:6 says that God is "the first and the last", Jesus calls himself the first and the last in Revelation 1:17-18. Can their be two first and last?

Where in the Bible does it say the "Word is God"? I do feel where you're coming from... but your case would tell me there is more then one God if your case holds reliable (as I'll show you why in a second)... but we both know this is isn't so (there is only one God). So where does this leave us? Let me tell you why your case tells me there is more then one God. You say can there be two first and the last, not exactly (but if you look at scripture for Jesus saying what he said for him to be God, then yes there is two God's from that point of view)... I look at what Jesus meant as he is the first creation of God, and will be there till the End... as well as him being the first to die and live:

Revelation 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

If we then look at Revelation 21:

Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sleepermongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(Why isn't any of that in Red?... cause it doesn't say Jesus spoke it, it says God did from the throne. But wait same attributes as Jesus?... it was God who spoke, Jesus holds attributes and characteristics as God, cause he is his son... that is why Jesus holds to certain names or whatever else he holds that represents God.)

And no, he wasn't lying. And nothing that I said would make him a liar. Show me what i said that would make Jesus' words that you gave reference to a lie?

You say Jesus is God our Father, so therefore what Jesus taught was a lie... even as he said after his resurrection: "I goto my Father and your Father, I goto my God and your God." Believeing that Jesus is God and our Father therefore makes his words a lie, cause he didn't refer to himself as such, and always refered to another in Heaven as such. And how can he goto his Father and God, if he is indeed the God our Father... so he wouldn't be going... so making his words a lie.

So what you say Jesus is just a man? Ok, so he was a man that existed before Abraham. The question is what was Jesus before he was born?! He couldn't have been a man. Because the scripture says he "BECAME" flesh. So what was he before? He could not have been just a man, matter of fact it says in Hebrews 2:9 that he was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Meaning the purpose of his humanity (John 1:14) was so that he could be a sacrifice for sin. So, he wasn't always a man, even if he was a special one.

Your right, he wasn't just a man... I'm saying he came to be a man... there is scripture that says God does have other Son(s) in heaven... now we must ask, was Jesus one of those son(s) from Heaven?

Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

That is when God was speaking to Job... he was speaking of the time of creating the Earth... he said, "and all the sons of God shouted for joy"... how'd he have sons already? This is getting into more deep then we are talking about though, so I'm not really looking for an answer here, just something to think about.

AMEN, I completely agree. Yet he was also the creator the world. More than just a man.

I agree, through him by him all things were made. But tell me, how can things be created through him?... this would support Trinity view here. Read the scriptures, it says all things were created for him, through him, and by him. Something to look up, I've did quite a bit of research on it myself... that's why I can see Trinity before Oneness, but then again... you know where I stand

Amen. "CHRIST" means Messiah and give reference to Jesus as a human "Savior". And let's talk about that. Jesus is called our savior, Yet GOD (the Father) said that HE(God) is our ONLY saviour (Isaiah 43:11). So either Jesus is God, God changed (and we know He doesn't), or that verse of scripture isn't true either.

Jesus can be called our Savior, he is the one who died for us... that name or characteristic was passed down to Jesus, worthy is the lamb.

What i said, is it was symbolic. Jesus isn't an actual LAMB. I'm sure you would agree with me there. At least I'd hope.

I agree he is not literally a lamb.

(The very beginning of the book comfirms the seperation, and even comfirms Jesus does not know all things... but only what his Father teaches him "which Jesus said many of times in the Gospels"

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What, that just say?... The Revelation of whom? (Jesus Christ), who gave him the revelation? (God), read it again... God is good, Jesus is my loving Master for giving his Life for me, so I can be obedient to God and Jesus as well, and be part of one of God's children.

I'm not boasting my brother in Christ, but I get so happy when God shows me these things... I'm hopeing he's showing you guys the samething. Did anyone else see what God just showed me?... anyone? Man I'm astonished, cause I've heard people say that the reason Jesus said "he didn't know the hour of his coming", was because he was flesh... but then John writes Revelation 1:1... comfirming that the Father still had to tell him what's to come, which Jesus sent an Angel to tell John to write it down. Sweetness!

Amen, Jesus in His Sonship role did not know everything.

So in Sonship you are refering in his Human form?... as you have mentioned... so didn't his human form end?... and where in the Bible is "Sonship role" found?

Some other questions... how you answer these following questions and scriptures:

When you pray, who are you praying to... and how, and why? Remember how Jesus said to pray to our Father in Heaven, even asking in his(Jesus') name. So I'd like to know how you go about praying?

Since you believe Jesus is God and the Father, God was Jesus as an infant baby... when people prayed they prayed to an infant Baby at the time?... what about when Jesus died, Bible says he died for 3 days... God can't die, or where was God during those 3 days of death? Who was Jesus praying to?

Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(Still Jesus says "confess his name before my Father", this was years after his death and resurrection.)

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Even Jesus tells the people he's talking to, that they haven't heard the voice or seen the shape of his Father "whom is God" at anytime... astonishing, even Jesus says this:

John 5:37 - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus was talking to them, and he tells them they haven't seen God our Father or heard his voice at anytime... how can that be, Jesus was standing there right in front of them, and spoke those words... how? Because God is seperate from Jesus... there is a Father our God, and his son (Jesus).

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Do you see the distinction there? Jesus praying to his and our Father and God, said, "that they(us) might know thee(God) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou(God) hast sent." Who sent him? God, who did God send? Jesus Christ... who does Jesus want us to know? The only true God, and who is that?... the person who sent Jesus Christ, not Jesus himself.

This post is directed at both sides of views... Trinity and Oneness. So both sides feel free to respond. Please don't respond if you haven't really studied this stuff, cause I've did quite a bit of research on this stuff already, and came to this conclussion that God is our Father, Jesus Christ is his Son... The Bible tells us this, so there shouldn't really be any disagreements concerning my view, right? (except maybe the way I view some scriptures) I'm likeing this convo as well.

[HIPHOPHEAD]

I hardly said he was... I was making a point... John never said Jesus was, only said the Word was... even though many can take that scripture and say it means Jesus... why didn't John just use the name Jesus there?, because he did not literally mean it to be Jesus, but as a symbolism... it gets deep, as I mentioned earlier in another post "Spoken Word". You can also go down a little ways and John confirms that Jesus is indeed not God... as well as in other scriptures by John I'm sure:

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Well, for one the name "JESUS" (or it's proper hebrew pronounciation YESHUA) has a meaning that applies to his sacrifice and salvation. But here's still the issue. If the WORD is GOD, and the word that became flesh is Jesus?! Then what do we have? Unless at some point the WORD stopped being God.

The Bible said GOD is a spirit. So you can't see a spirit correct? Yet in the old testament GOD appeared to Abraham (Genesis 18). Does this "appearances" make John 1:18 untrue? Of course not. God appeared to him in the form of a man. However, with Jesus, God robed himself in human flesh, and was born like a regular human. And actually that WORD in John 1 isn't merely spoken word. It goes deeper than that, and it's more than symbolism.

Concerning John 10:33... he did confirm what he meant, they took it as him making himself God... but he said to restore truth, and not lies as they said "He maketh himself God" - "36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" Samething answers John 8:58, they took it as Jesus claiming to be God... tell me, why didn't the writers emphasize the "I AM" Jesus said, as they did in the OT?

John 10:33, he never corrected them saying he wasn't claiming what he said, but he did give them a history lesson. Like i said, the Jews knew (because this is Jewish Theology) what it entailed for someone to claim to be "the son of God". Then at the end of verse 38 he gave them another dose that let them know that he wasn't just jivin'.

Now you said in John 8:58 why didn't the writers emphasize the "I AM" like they did in the OT. I'm not sure what you mean. Like why wasn't it capitalized? You have to realize that was done by people translating it. But that doesn't make it any less significant. Because those Jews that he was most likely speaking Hebrew too, realized that it mean the same thing. In Hebrew the phrase "I AM" basically means "to exist". Only God himself can use that phrase. If Jesus wasn't the eternal God, but came in existence at sometime, he couldn't say that. Peep John 5:18... the Jews knew what the words of Jesus entailed.

See you say sonship role... but yet that doesn't explain Revelation 1:1, as he is no longer in his human nature... as he did ascend back into Heaven to be with his Father. Please explain.

You said he is no longer in human nature but, Is Jesus still our mediator?! (1 Timothy 2:5). It says the MAN Christ Jesus correct? Man = Humanity.

Did you know that Paul was telling us to be like minded, and think just like Christ did. As we should find it not robbery to be equal with God, aren't we now Children of God?... so therefore we are suppose to be in the form of God, taking on his Character... as being perfect, like minded as Christ. Read the verse before Phil. 2:6...

Philippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

...11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As we aren't suppose to not only believe Jesus is Lord the son of God, but also be like minded, as to walk, act, and think the same way Christ did, to the fulness of glorifying God our Father. As we ought to have the fulness of God in us, as God's Spirit dwells in us, right... to give us a mind as of Christ which is God's mind?

I agree with most of what you said. However, being like Christ in his example of HUMILITY as a HUMAN was what he was getting at. We will never be in the form of God as Jesus is.

hhhmmmmm.., tell me where in the Bible does it say: "Sonship role".

God's blood, it is his Blood. When you have a child, isn't your blood passed to him?... don't we call our children, our own flesh and blood. God did purchase us with his own blood, his own son.

But God has no blood to pass on. "Sonship role" is just what I'm using to explain a biblical concept of Jesus as a HUMAN/SON.

True, but you are hinting at him putting away his human traights per say... question, so I am not confused on what your getting at. What do you mean?... like Jesus after his resurrection is now fully God, and has put away his humanity? But that wouldn't make since, cause where is the true God without human origin, in all this? Please explain.

What I'm saying is that was Jesus example what we're suppose to do of "Dying Daily" as Paul called it; Yielding our members to the will of the God. Although Jesus was a perfect/sinless man (Due to the fact he was not born of the seed of a man), he was still tempted. And humanity overcomes temptation by resisting it.

So God couldn't speak a Word and say be it done, and Mary received a Child and it was thus Jesus the son of God? When God speaks a Word it is planted as a seed, as Christians who speek the Word. In John 1 it is God speaking a thought therefore planting a Seed into Mary (just another way of explaining it). Therefore all God's traights and what God taught Jesus, was passed on to Jesus... as any Human Father to any son.

Amen. Yet here's the thing, the way speak of God passing on "traits" is too much in human terms. So, as I've already shown you in scripture, God's attributes and titles have absoluteness to them. He said ONLY I HAVE THEM. So, (as the Jews knew full well) in order for the almighty God to have a HUMAN SON with His(God's) attributes, it had to be an extrordinarily special situation. It had to be God himself in flesh. And that's why they accused him of blasphemy.

Where in the Bible does it say the "Word is God"? I do feel where you're coming from... but your case is still telling me there is more then one God if your case holds reliable... but we both know this is isn't so. So where does this leave us? Let me tell you why your case holds to there is more then one God. You say can there be two first and the last, yes their can be and there is... I look at what Jesus meant as he is the first creation of God, and will be there till the End... as well as him being the first to die and live:

Revelation 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:1 "the Word was God." 'Was' is just the past tense of "to be" and "is" is the present tense. However, if you see that as only past tense, the the question is, "if the Word WAS God yet it isn't anymore, when did it stop BEING God?"

Ok, now you said you "SEE" it that way, but it doesn't say that he was FIRST creation of God.

If we then look at Revelation 21:

Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sleepermongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(Why isn't any of that in Red?... cause it doesn't say Jesus spoke it, it says God did from the throne. But wait same attributes as Jesus?... it was God who spoke, Jesus holds attributes and characteristics as God, cause he is his son... that is why Jesus holds to certain names or whatever else he holds that represents God.)

Remember what I was saying earlier regarding this vision of Revelation. And what i've continued to say about God's "ATTRIBUTES" and their absoluteness.

You say Jesus is God our Father, so therefore what Jesus taught was a lie... even as he said after his resurrection: "I goto my Father and your Father, I goto my God and your God." Believeing that Jesus is God and our Father therefore makes his words a lie, cause he didn't refer to himself as such, and always refered to another in Heaven as such. And how can he goto his Father and God, if he is indeed the God our Father... so he wouldn't be going... so making his words a lie.

No, it wouldn't make his words a lie. UNLESS, you're limiting God to the human standard of only being able to be in ONE place at ONE time. Ok, so knowing that God is all powerful and not limited to time and space, you'd have to agree that He (God) can be on earth and in heaven simultaneously. Now, if Jesus is the CREATOR and GOD of all flesh, that means even though he was God robed in flesh; that flesh was still subject to His divine nature (which is where we get the dual role). So yes, Jesus was returning to his Father/God in heaven.

Your right, he wasn't just a man... I'm saying he came to be a man... there is scripture that says God does have other Son(s) in heaven... now we must ask, was Jesus one of those son(s) from Heaven?

Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

That is when God was speaking to Job... he was speaking of the time of creating the Earth... he said, "and all the sons of God shouted for joy"... how'd he have sons already? This is getting into more deep then we are talking about though, so I'm not really looking for an answer here, just something to think about.

Word, i know you weren't looking for answer but i had to explain that. That's something i studied before and "SONS of God" in that verse is a Hebrew idiom that refers to angels. Now, i know JWs and SDAs believe that Jesus was an angel, but that myth is dispelled with Hebrews 1:5. Remember, Jesus is the "only begotten" son. God is to Jesus as My dad is to me. But that's all from a human stand point.

I agree, through him by him all things were made. But tell me, how can things be created through him?... this would support Trinity view here. Read the scriptures, it says all things were created for him, through him, and by him. Something to look up, I've did quite a bit of research on it myself... that's why I can see Trinity before Oneness, but then again... you know where I stand

Now see, when I hear that it seems to me that there's no other choice than for him to be God himself. Isaiah 44:24, Once again show GOD the Father saying he did something ALONE. So if the same thing is attributed to Jesus, then he has to Be GOD Himself. Also peep Isaiah 45:18 and Malachi 2:10.

Jesus can be called our Savior, he is the one who died for us... that name or characteristic was passed down to Jesus, worthy is the lamb.

But here's the thing. the only way for that to be true is if Jesus didn't exist during the scriptures in Isaiah where GOD said "besides me there is No God" and "beside me there is No Saviour". However, Jesus already said he existed before Abraham, and Abraham was before Isaiah so we still have a problem.

I agree he is not literally a lamb.

lol.. Cool. I knew you didn't think that.

So in Sonship you are refering in his Human form?... as you have mentioned... so didn't his human form end?... and where in the Bible is "Sonship role" found?

Yes, Sonship was part of his humanity. As Jesus was BEGOTTEN, meaning born, references humanity.And once again, you said didn't that form end?! You already answered that question. 1 Corinthians 15:24-26. This hasn't happened yet. Jesus is still our mediator. (1 Timothy 2:5).

Some other questions... how you answer these following questions and scriptures:

When you pray, who are you praying to... and how, and why? Remember how Jesus said to pray to our Father in Heaven, even asking in his(Jesus') name. So I'd like to know how you go about praying?

Just like the bible says, in Jesus name.

Since you believe Jesus is God and the Father, God was Jesus as an infant baby... when people prayed they prayed to an infant Baby at the time?... what about when Jesus died, Bible says he died for 3 days... God can't die, or where was God during those 3 days of death? Who was Jesus praying to?

Cool, i like these questions. First this is where you have to remember just how GREAT God is ok. Remember that God can't be limited human limitations. Jesus is 100% human and 100% God. When Jesus(God) was on earth in human form feeling the changes that a human goes through as they grow He was still in heaven. Remember God is ALL Powerful. Now, when Jesus died: Remember Jesus is all Human and all God. Jesus died as a HUMAN not as God. While that body was in the grave, once again, God was in heaven. He (as a man, humanity, being our example) was praying to God.

Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(Still Jesus says confess his name before my Father, this was years after his death and resurrection.)

Sonship isn't done yet.

John 1:18 as I mentioned earlier... John went on to say no man has seen God at anytime, except the Son.

1 John 4:12 - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I explained that earlier in this post.

Even Jesus tells the people he's talking to, that they haven't heard the voice or seen the shape of his Father "whom is God" at anytime... astonishing, even Jesus says this:

John 5:37 - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus was talking to them, and he tells them they haven't seen God our Father or heard his voice at anytime... how can that be, Jesus was standing there right in front of them, and spoke those words... how? Because God is seperate from Jesus... there is a Father our God, and his son (Jesus).

Watch it know. Realize what it was talking about there. It saying that these people have never KNOWN God. "Heard His voice" = given ear of heeded his voice; "nor seen his shape" = blind to God's character. That's explained in verse 38 and on.

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Do you see the distinction there? Jesus praying to his and our Father and God, said, "that they(us) might know thee(God) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou(God) hast sent." Who sent him? God, who did God send? Jesus Christ... who does Jesus want us to know? The only true God, and who is that?... the person who sent Jesus Christ, not Jesus himself.

Amen, this all sonship. Paul calls Jesus God in Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

This post is directed at both sides of views... Trinity and Oneness. So both sides feel free to respond. Please don't respond if you haven't really studied this stuff, cause I've did quite a bit of research on this stuff already, and came to this conclussion that God is our Father, Jesus Christ is his Son... The Bible tells us this, so there shouldn't really be any disagreements concerning my view, right? I'm likeing this convo as well.

I completely agree with your conclussion ;D

[ludawg]

You say the sonship role hasn't changed... so when you pray, do you pray to God our Father, and to Jesus his son? Just so I'm not confused on this, and to ask another question... so then there is two Gods... right? One as in the Father's form, and one as in the son's form?... thus being two forms of God at this moment, cause as you said the sonship role hasn't ended yet. If Trinitarians... would like to believe God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... then where's the disagreement? I think you said, that would be answered by another, who was suppose to start a topic concerning the Trinity reasoning, right?

Can you still explain to me where in the Bible does it say Jesus is just playing out a role, as the Son (I'm going to be doing some studying on this). I'll go back over your last post when I get more time... thank you for your time.

Edited: Just to help clarify my question... If Jesus is God, you said something like you believe the human form hasn't ended for Jesus, so untill him and his Father can be re-united as one(as you stated that's how you explain 1 Cor. 15:28) they are seperate?... so you do believe in a seperation? That's what I'm gathering, please explain. We both know there can't be two or even three Gods though, we do agree on that. Why aren't any Trinity believers replying?... I know "the answer" had to take off, but what about the others? Maybe they just enjoy reading this great convo we having amongst ourselves

[brotha]

This is Wha I got to say Jesus is ether a liar a lunatic or lord cause i norma person does not claim to be God, or he was lyin , or he was god cause he does claim to be god

[brotha]

and i say he be God y'all

[brotha]

But we all atleast have somthin in comin we all love Jesus

[ludawg]

I'm just going to quote two things, as my brain hurts

hiphophead said:

Sonship isn't done yet.

Again, so there is at least two seperate God beings/persons making God?

I completely agree with your conclussion ;D

Good, I'd like to believe so, but my conclussion is... I believe in the Father our God, and Jesus Christ our Lord (whom is God's son). There is an AND there, so I believe in two seperate beings/persons. As there are ANDs throughout the Bible which seperate the two. I like to interpret the scriptures as Jesus taught them as well, and he taught there is God our Father, and his God and Father... so where does that leave me? I have to believe in God our Father, and Jesus his son. Otherwise all my comments are useless.

You say you believe in both, but do you?... I'm sorry if I'm wrong about your thoughts alone, but from many Oneness believers I see they don't believe in the Father AND the Son, but they only believe in the Son who they think is the Father as well.

And my problem with Trinity is, they say Jesus is God as well and they use Isaiah 9:6 to try to prove it, but then they don't believe he is the Father, which Isaiah 9:6 says he is "called the everlasting Father" as well... mind bogling

My only conclussion here is to believe what Jesus taught and what the Bible tells me... not from a deeper stand point, but from a non-wise way, heheh, which in turn makes us wise . As I said earlier, this is what I believe:

God is our Father, he's every name he mentioned as well... is who he is. Jesus is our Lord, our Savior, our Mediator... so forth. If Jesus is God... then we would have to conclude that there is no seperations.... and thus making Jesus fully God... but that would leave me so many questions that truthfully can't be answered.

One of those many questions being... why doesn't Jesus know everything?

[OrthodoX]

First it must be admited that both of your conclusions about the nature of God are not orthodox. The historic Christian faith disagrees with you.

With that said lets go ahead and deal with a more important question...is the orthodox position of the nature of God (Trinitarianism) true?

I believe that we must hold to the trinitarian perspective when we have a correct understanding of Christ.

According to the opening passage of hebrews Jesus is the final and complete self-disclosure of God. One of the magnificent things about the person of Jesus is that he has been waiting to reveal himself for all of human history. God gives bits and pieces of himself and his plan through the prophets and the Law....and all these "pieces" lead up to the whole picture....Jesus Christ, the creator and sustainer of the world...God incarnate.

This is why Jesus is the only one who can have the title attributed to the Father in the OT...'Almighty'. Only God can have this term applied to him.

We must learn to define our terms biblically. What is meant by the word 'god'? Is it what the Enlightment tells us it means? The Bible requires us, as it did those in the first certury, to define God as Jesus Christ. Anything we are to know about God, we derive from him. He is God with human face.

St. Athanasius stood firm against the Arian controversy in the fourth century. The Arian heresy said that Jesus was not divine. Athanasius understood that God's love was at stake. The Bible says that God loved his people so much that he didn't send one of his creatures to save us...he sent his son, the exact image of God...God incarnate. God himself came to earth as a man in order to spill his blood for humanity. God loves his people enough to sacrifice himself, not another.

Secondly, your views deny the utter desperatin of the human condition. We are depraved...radically corrupt! We are so lost naturally and so far gone that God himself is the only one that could save us!!! A created being couldn't cut it. Abraham gave birth to a great nation whose vocation was to lead the nations to God...to reconcile the world to Jehova...see Deut and Psalms. But Israel failed. They couldn't carry out such a monumentous task.

Jesus Christ, Son of God, creator of the universe, God in flesh is the only one who could save humanity and creation.

DoX

[OrthodoX]

Here is a dope lecture on Jesus and God by N.T. Wright...check it out:

www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_God.mp3


DoX

[HIPHOPHEAD]

Trinity is orthodox according to who? Definitely not scripture. What you should do is peep the my original posts to "the answer" or we also can start a new thread on so called trinitarian orthodoxy.

[DoGMaTiX]

consistent said:

Here is a dope lecture on Jesus and God by N.T. Wright...check it out:

www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_God.mp3


DoX

Dope post Ortho!!!!