Hip hop head explain this

[the answer]

BTW, I have never asked u this question...so your "response" is new to me, even tho u say u have givin it many times.

hhh

How would you explain the baptism of Jesus?

1. The voice from heaven ( The Father)

2. Jesus in the water ( The Son)

3. The dove decends on Jesus ( The Spirit)

I see this as a clear showing of the trinity.

How do u see this passage according to your view?

Chea

[HIPHOPHEAD]

BTW, I have never asked u this question...so your "response" is new to me, even tho u say u have givin it many times.

i don't think you specifically asked, but if you frequented the HHZ theology boards i gave an explination in almost every oneness thread. because people kept asking me.

How would you explain the baptism of Jesus?

A sign to John the Baptist. (John 1:32-34)

1. The voice from heaven ( The Father)

Amen

2. Jesus in the water ( The Son)

Amen

3. The dove decends on Jesus ( The Spirit)

Amen. A Dove has always been the sign of the holy spirit.

I see this as a clear showing of the trinity.

John 1:33-34... A sign to John the Baptist, not a lesson on Godhead. GOD can do/work in any way he pleases, but that doesn't make him 3 persons.

[the answer]

John 1:33-34... A sign to John the Baptist, not a lesson on Godhead. GOD can do/work in any way he pleases, but that doesn't make him 3 persons.

So, then what is God doing here? They are distinct !! The Father is NOT the Son. The Son is NOT the Spirit. So I ask u what exactly is going on here AND why is my explaination not satisfactory to u to explain what is happening?

Even tho it is not a "lesson on the Godhead" The godhead is there. So how does he revel Himself? As I see it, 3 distinct persons, which is clearly seen and u agree to it.

1

[HIPHOPHEAD]

admin said:

John 1:33-34... A sign to John the Baptist, not a lesson on Godhead. GOD can do/work in any way he pleases, but that doesn't make him 3 persons.

So, then what is God doing here? They are distinct !! The Father is NOT the Son. The Son is NOT the Spirit. So I ask u what exactly is going on here AND why is my explaination not satisfactory to u to explain what is happening?

Even tho it is not a "lesson on the Godhead" The godhead is there. So how does he revel Himself? As I see it, 3 distinct persons, which is clearly seen and u agree to it.

1

According to you they're distinct, but that's an assumption. Not a scripturally backed fact. Now, you said "the godhead is there." Do you know what the word "godhead" means?

Next, I don't see a revelation of 3 distinct persons. I do however see three ways he revealed himself with in the jewish cultural revelance and revelance of salvation.

Father Speaking From the Sky = Jewish Cultural revelance for John the Baptist. Father/GOD is in Heaven.

Jesus Christ the Son on Earth = Salvation/redeemption for mankind. Also, Jewish cultural relevance of GOD making his Tabernacle with man (Feast of the Tabernacle)

Dove = More Jewish cultural relevance denoting the Holy Spirit. Proof of God's annointing on Jesus.

All three things significant, but no scriptuural reason for me to denote distinct personage to each.

Let me ask you a question. is the Holy Spirit a Spirt?

[the answer]

Gotta go to bible study..so this will be quick

How is it an assumption that they are distinct?

Also, u have yet to explain what is goin on in this passage, If the father is God and the son and the spirit, yet God is only 1 person ( I think this is your view, correct me if im wrong). Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?

Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit

1

[HIPHOPHEAD]

admin said:

Gotta go to bible study..so this will be quick

How is it an assumption that they are distinct?

Also, u have yet to explain what is goin on in this passage, If the father is God and the son and the spirit, yet God is only 1 person ( I think this is your view, correct me if im wrong). Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?

Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit

1

It's an assumption because it's not something stated in scripture.

Next, Just for a better explination, I believe that JESUS Is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; because Jesus is God by himself. (I guess orthodox would call that my creed.. lol).

And I thought i did explain what was happening?! Anyway, you asked me "Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?"

I answered that question. Because of cultural/scriptural (scripturally speaking of the Tanakah) significance. Let's try this again.

Voice from Heaven: Old testament is RIDDLED with referrences of God speaking to his people. Where did he speak from?! From Heaven. (Exodus 20:22, 2 Sam. 22:14, Neh. 9:13, Dan. 4:31) This shows pattern from old to new of God speaking to his prophets and people.

Jesus on earth as Son: Emmanuel, God on earth with men (Jewish Feast of the Tabernacle).

Holy Spirit in form of a Dove: Dove is the scriptural symbol for the Holy Spirit. (yes i'm repeating myself. lol)

Show's how God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Ok, you said "Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit". Cool. Well, i have no reason (from scripture) to think or believe that The Holy Spirit is a PERSON within God, because God is a SPIRIT (John 4:24).

So, if John 4:24 is true (and it is) and Holy Spirit is a Spirit. Then Holy Spirit can only be another way to refer to GOD himself, and not a PERSON within GOD. That is if we go by scripture.

Still would like to know what you think "Godhead" means and how/why you equate it to 3 persons?

[OrthodoX]

hiphophead said:

admin said:

Gotta go to bible study..so this will be quick

How is it an assumption that they are distinct?

Also, u have yet to explain what is goin on in this passage, If the father is God and the son and the spirit, yet God is only 1 person ( I think this is your view, correct me if im wrong). Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?

Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit

1

It's an assumption because it's not something stated in scripture.

Next, Just for a better explination, I believe that JESUS Is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; because Jesus is God by himself. (I guess orthodox would call that my creed.. lol).

And I thought i did explain what was happening?! Anyway, you asked me "Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?"

I answered that question. Because of cultural/scriptural (scripturally speaking of the Tanakah) significance. Let's try this again.

Voice from Heaven: Old testament is RIDDLED with referrences of God speaking to his people. Where did he speak from?! From Heaven. (Exodus 20:22, 2 Sam. 22:14, Neh. 9:13, Dan. 4:31) This shows pattern from old to new of God speaking to his prophets and people.

Jesus on earth as Son: Emmanuel, God on earth with men (Jewish Feast of the Tabernacle).

Holy Spirit in form of a Dove: Dove is the scriptural symbol for the Holy Spirit. (yes i'm repeating myself. lol)

Show's how God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Ok, you said "Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit". Cool. Well, i have no reason (from scripture) to think or believe that The Holy Spirit is a PERSON within God, because God is a SPIRIT (John 4:24).

So, if John 4:24 is true (and it is) and Holy Spirit is a Spirit. Then Holy Spirit can only be another way to refer to GOD himself, and not a PERSON within GOD. That is if we go by scripture.

Still would like to know what you think "Godhead" means and how/why you equate it to 3 persons?

HHH-

Are not you "assuming" that God is not Trinitarian and that in this passage he is just revealing himself in three different ways? Where in this passage does it say "God revealed himself in these three ways, but he is not a trinity"? I must have missed that.

DoX

[DoGMaTiX]

good point dox!!!

Ima respond to other things when I get back from this graduation

chea

[the answer]

ooops..the above post was me...not roldan

It logged me in as him

chea

[HIPHOPHEAD]

consistent said:

hiphophead said:

It's an assumption because it's not something stated in scripture.

Next, Just for a better explination, I believe that JESUS Is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; because Jesus is God by himself. (I guess orthodox would call that my creed.. lol).

And I thought i did explain what was happening?! Anyway, you asked me "Then how/why is God revealing himself like this?"

I answered that question. Because of cultural/scriptural (scripturally speaking of the Tanakah) significance. Let's try this again.

Voice from Heaven: Old testament is RIDDLED with referrences of God speaking to his people. Where did he speak from?! From Heaven. (Exodus 20:22, 2 Sam. 22:14, Neh. 9:13, Dan. 4:31) This shows pattern from old to new of God speaking to his prophets and people.

Jesus on earth as Son: Emmanuel, God on earth with men (Jewish Feast of the Tabernacle).

Holy Spirit in form of a Dove: Dove is the scriptural symbol for the Holy Spirit. (yes i'm repeating myself. lol)

Show's how God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Ok, you said "Yes the holy Spirit is a Spirit". Cool. Well, i have no reason (from scripture) to think or believe that The Holy Spirit is a PERSON within God, because God is a SPIRIT (John 4:24).

So, if John 4:24 is true (and it is) and Holy Spirit is a Spirit. Then Holy Spirit can only be another way to refer to GOD himself, and not a PERSON within GOD. That is if we go by scripture.

Still would like to know what you think "Godhead" means and how/why you equate it to 3 persons?

HHH-

Are not you "assuming" that God is not Trinitarian and that in this passage he is just revealing himself in three different ways? Where in this passage does it say "God revealed himself in these three ways, but he is not a trinity"? I must have missed that.

DoX

Senor DoX, i don't believe the word "WAYS" is anywhere in my post. ;D But if you want to use that word, God always revealed himself in different "WAYS" in the old testament (jehovah rophi, nissi, jireh, etc). So a pattern (In a Jewish cultural/religious setting) has already been set, making this a logical interpretation.

Next, you said "but he is not a trinity"?" Ok, according to trinity (or at least 95% of the interpretations i've heard) God is 3 persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit]. This specifically gives a claim about God's character (the claim being God is 3 persons). A claim that God never made about himself, and that no other BIBLICAL author made. So, since there is no biblical backing for that claim there is no reason for me to attempt to interpret this verse as trinity. I could ask you the same in reverse. Where does it say "and these are the three persons of the Godhead"?

[HIPHOPHEAD]

the said:

good point dox!!!

Ima respond to other things when I get back from this graduation

chea

don't forget to respond to "Still would like to know what you think "Godhead" means and how/why you equate it to 3 persons? " ;D

[HIPHOPHEAD]

consistent said:

Are not you "assuming" that God is not Trinitarian and that in this passage he is just revealing himself in three different ways? Where in this passage does it say "God revealed himself in these three ways, but he is not a trinity"? I must have missed that.

DoX

correcting myself.. i did say "WAYS" in my first post. my bad.

[the answer]

Ay yo

When I say God head I simply mean : the essential being or the nature of God.


Remember we don't say that God is simply 3 persons. What we say is that God is 3 in 1.

In other words, there is 1 what and 3 who's

Simply put, there is ONE God, but he is revealed in 3 persons.

The Holy Spirit is a person becuase he displays personal characterists. He can be grieved, lied to, and on and on.

Who was Jesus praying to in the garden? himself? He said the Father is greater then I am, hmmmm so was he saying he was greater then himself?

I Agree there is one God, but it's how he is revealed that I part ways with u on

1

[HIPHOPHEAD]

admin said:

Ay yo

When I say God head I simply mean : the essential being or the nature of God.

Cool.

admin said:

Remember we don't say that God is simply 3 persons. What we say is that God is 3 in 1.

In other words, there is 1 what and 3 who's

Yes, yes I know. I've heard all these explinations before.

admin said:

Simply put, there is ONE God, but he is revealed in 3 persons.

Yes, i understand. My problem is this isn't in scripture.

admin said:

The Holy Spirit is a person becuase he displays personal characterists. He can be grieved, lied to, and on and on.

Understood. The question is do those personal characteristics make it a seperate person? and where in SCRIPTURE is this stated?

Like i said. GOD is a spirit (John 4:24), the Holy Spirit is a spirit, and there's one spirit (1Cor 12:13, Eph 4:4, ).

Go back to the scripture i posted in my last post. John 4:24. Let's look at the previous verse.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

No looking at this Jesus makes no distiction between GOD (the what as you call it) and the Father (one of the who's as you say). And if Jesus makes no distinction why should I?

admin said:

Who was Jesus praying to in the garden? himself? He said the Father is greater then I am, hmmmm so was he saying he was greater then himself?

Ok, there's a couple issues here. You said that "He said the Father is greater then I am". First do you believe (like most trinitarians) that all the "persons in the Godhead" are co-equal, eternal, etc? If so that doesn't make sense. Yes the Father is Greater than "the Son", because "the Son" refers to humanity.

You also asked "Who was Jesus praying to in the garden? himself?". Jesus prayers where examples of him submitting his flesh to the spirit and will of God. Being a perfect HUMAN example.

admin said:

I Agree there is one God, but it's how he is revealed that I part ways with u on

1

true. well, hopefully we can build with examples from scripture.

[HIPHOPHEAD]

I got a few more things to put out there since you really didn't totally respond to my post. Here's something to think about.

#1. The word "GODHEAD". This word is only mentioned 3x's in the entire bible. It means Deity or "Divine Nature".

Now with that in mind let's look at the 3 references.

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

Here we have Paul letting us know that since God is the creator we shouldn't think that "Divine Nature" is something created or that can be represented from human reconstrution.

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: "

Here again we have Paul, and he's telling us basically that the power of God can be seen in his creation.

Now for the last use of this word in scripture.

Colossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Once again our boy Paul speaking. This verse is pretty plain for me fam. And if according to you, part of "divine nature" is God being three person, then scripture just said that all of that was in Jesus Christ?! SO what's the deal? I fail even further after reading this verse to see the three distinct persons. I see ONE person, and that's Jesus.

#2. Just another interesting tidbit i thought I'd throw in.
In John 14:6 Jesus says that he is the the way, the truth, and the life. And no man comes to the Father but by him. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth (John 16:13), not only that the Spirit alone is called THE TRUTH (1 John 5:6).

#3. One last thing.

Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." KJV..

Let's peep that same verse in the amplified.

20 "Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] ONE PERSON [and He was the sole party in giving that promise to Abraham. But the Law was a contract between two, God and Israel; its validity was dependent on both]."

*emphasis added by me* ;D Holla..


P.S. Anyone is welcome to combat. I'd love to see the otherside from a scriptural standpoint. GOD Bless

[the answer]

Hey man

Ima have the guys pinch hit for me till i get back. Sorry to disappoint. We may have to start all over when I return...Anyway take care..and we'll resume when I get back!

grace and peace

the answer

[HIPHOPHEAD]

i thought you had 3 weeks before your trip fam?

[DoGMaTiX]

Just wanted to say this is a good respectful discussion

Both sides are being mature and Christlike. Keep it up.

[HIPHOPHEAD]

You're welcome to join buddy... the answer will be on a mission for the next 3 Weeks. He said he need a pinch hitter.

dogmatix said:

Just wanted to say this is a good respectful discussion

Both sides are being mature and Christlike. Keep it up.

[ludawg]

What's it be guys? Been awhile... HHH hooked me up with the link, cause I was interested in his believes and how he viewed certain scriptures.

Well I'm here to post some scriptures for both sides of the party... as most of you know, I don't believe Jesus is God. So both sides are respectfully going to get some scriptures to answer for me. Feel free to give me some scriptures to answer, if you like... even though I'm going to come straight up forward and say I don't have all the answers, but that's why we are here, right? To those who don't know me, I do strongly believe Jesus is the only begotten son of God, so don't get me wrong... I believe strongly in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But I don't view them all to be God (just the Father), for very simple reasons.

Anyways, let me get to my scriptures I have for both sides of the subject.

HHH, you mentioned earlier that only the voice was for John, then please explain the other account(s) of God's powerful voice which others clearly heard:

John 12:27-29 - Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. - Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. - The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

(You could have the same reasoning for this scripture as well... but that doesn't explain Jesus praying to the Father, and then a voice comes from Heaven that sounded like thunder, that whoever was near heard it.)

HHH and the answer, concerning if Jesus is God:
2 John 1:3 - Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

(Doesn't that clearly state that God is the Father, and Jesus is Lord and the son of the Father, which the Father is our God. Then John clearly states: ...in truth and love.)

Revelation 7:10 - And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

(Seperation?... they must be two different persons. And then not only does it not just say Salvation to our God, but it also says unto the Lamb... why didn't he just leave it saying God, since they are both God?)

Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

(Again, same question... why didn't he just leave it saying God, since they are both God?... cause he could have just stopped it at God, but no he went on to say: and of the Lamb.)

And what about all these verses:
Romans 1:7 ~ 1 Corinthians 1:3 ~ 2 Corinthians 1:2 ~ Ephesians 1:2 ~ Philippians 1:2 ~ Colossians 1:2 ~ 1 Thessalonians 1:1 ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:2 ~ 1 Timothy 1:2 ~ Philemon 1:3 ~ Galatians 1:1 ~ Galatians 1:3 ~ Ephesians 6:23 ~ Philippians 2:11 ~ 2 Timothy 1:2 ~ Titus 1:4 ~ 1 Peter 1:2 ~ 2 Peter 1:17 ~ Jude 1:1

Even Stephen proclaimed the seperation of the Mighty God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord:

Acts 7:55 - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

(Jesus standing on the right hand of God?... how can that be, I thought Jesus is God? Some will take you to verse 59 only, which says: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." That does not imply that Jesus is God, just states Stephen was calling upon God and saying Lord Jesus recieve my spirit. Read those scriptures around it as well, to get a better understanding.)

Why so much seperation, and why never saying: Jesus our God, or God our Son... or God the Son. Cause God is the Father Jesus speaks of, and Jesus is our Lord... not our God. Lets give respect due pay to our Father which is in Heaven by naming Him God the only true God... Jesus is the only true son of God, who died for our sins and was found suitable for his posistions he received from God. To top it off, Jesus also recognized God our Father as his God as well.

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And I'll close this post by saying please feel free to comment on any of this, as I'm willing to learn, and with Jesus' prayer of Life for the saints, which I'm sure he's trying to tell you guys the samething right now as you read this post:

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

-Grace and Peace to you all from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of the Father. Amen.-