Christian Beef is it Biblical?

[quietstorm]

Should brothers/sisters in Christ reconcile their differences or should they have beef and not speak to one another? Scriptures would be nice lets discuss.

[eternal]

I believe the whole gospel is of reconciliation. Everything. From God to human, human to human, human to world, etc. Justice is to reign and everything impeding that must be reconciled. That includes poverty, sickness, injustice, sin, greed, hatred, low self esteem, racism, slander, gossip, pride, everything. I am being reconciled myself, but there is so much to be reconciled!

2 Cor. 5: 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

This is a marvelous passage. The entire point of Christ is reconciliation, OF ALL THINGS...

Col 1: 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

AMEN!

Reconciation is essential to the gospel, and we must never forsake it for the cause of "easiness." Sure it is "easier" to let problems stew and exist, but it is by far more problematic and harmful to God's good creation, and counterproductive to His ministry.

peace.

[DoGMaTiX]

Then let us not take part in sinful bickery and stay focused and I am not calling anyone out because we all fall into this so lets pray so we will not get caught up in pride.

one

[eternal]

dogmatix said:

Then let us not take part in sinful bickery and stay focused

one

That is true. How to gain reconciliation is a difficult thing to tackle. Some say if a person is committed to sinning against you, the best thing to do is to continue that individual to sin against you without ever standing up and trying to rectify the situation, or at least once you have tried, don't try any more, or even tell a person what they are doing is wrong.

I don't think that is the path towards reconciliation. Sometimes you have to lay it all out before you can build. True?

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

dogmatix said:

Then let us not take part in sinful bickery and stay focused

one

That is true. How to gain reconciliation is a difficult thing to tackle. Some say if a person is committed to sinning against you, the best thing to do is to continue that individual to sin against you without ever standing up and trying to rectify the situation, or at least once you have tried, don't try any more, or even tell a person what they are doing is wrong.

I don't think that is the path towards reconciliation. Sometimes you have to lay it all out before you can build. True?

word

[king neb]

One of my favorite places in the Bible is Ezekiel 37. There is so much packed into that chapter regarding salvation, the resurrection, the Gospel, the kingdom of God – it’s a wonderful section.

One of the things that a reading of it will draw out is the connection between the Gospel and reconciliation. Not only reconciling with God, but with one another, which of course is only made possible after reconciling with God.

Ezekiel 37 was written during a time when the ‘kingdom of Israel’ (according to the flesh) was divided. Notice the promise of the New Covenant in regards to this:

Ezekiel 37:20-28 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."

Absolutely beautiful. This is the goal of the Gospel. Reconciliation with God and with one another.

This is why Paul made such a big deal about division in the Church. Paul’s main concern with schisms was not just that division is bad for bad’s sake – it was a denial of the Gospel itself. Its absolutely hypocritical to say you believe the Gospel, ie, you believe that God has gathered His elect into the kingdom and body of Christ, and then turn right around and not live that out by fighting all the time.

When I began to see the power of this in Ezekiel and Paul’s proclamation of the fulfillment of it in Romans, this is what really began to convict me about how loosely I threw around the ‘heretic’ name calling. It is no laughing matter and absolutely nothing any serious Christian should take lightly. You are playing around with the very Gospel itself. That is not to say that heretics don’t exist – I certainly believe they do. But you better have the authority of the highest angels behind you when you start proclaiming it. You better be absolutely prepared to give an answer from God’s Word as to why and exhaust all possibilities. It’s a very serious matter.

So yes, I would say that reconciliation is non-negotiable. It is essential to the Gospel. Granted, there will be times with Christians don’t live that out and refuse to talk sense. What can you do? I’d say check your own heart, make every effort you can and if the person refuses, let it go. God is big enough to handle that person. He certainly will not allow His Gospel to be tainted by unrepentant children. He has His way with dealing with people and I trust in His sovereignty that He is able to sort it out.

[eternal]

Wow, Neb. Tremendous post. I completely agree. Here is a passage from Paul that says the EXACT same thing, and shows the gospel of reconciliation in all its levels,

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit

This is so inspiring and provoking. Recalling that our reconciliation verticaly is comprised of reconciliation horizontaly. For as Jesus even said,

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."

Your last point is true as well. Paul writes,

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

This gospel is on us. We must live it out. If others reject it, so be it. We all suffer, but we must do our part and live reconciliation.

[DoGMaTiX]

Now this is a dope thread

[quietstorm]

dogmatix said:

Now this is a dope thread

*pats himself on back* ;D

[king neb]

eternal,

that's right bro. good post as well. "peace" for Paul was not just some hippy, love and peace thing. It's covenantal. When you see "peace" in the NT, that should trigger your thoughts towards 'the peace' of the covenant promised in the OT. And that peace is at the very heart of the Reign of Christ. great stuff bro!

[king neb]

man o man....you guys better be careful though...you're getting right into the heart of fulfilled eschatology...lol...read that Ephesians quote nice and slowly. Paul is teaching Ezekiel 37 being fulfilled and thus the Resurrection of the Twelve tribes right in front of your nose....We are that temple...the resurrected 'body'...the new man...its all covenantal....ohhh boy!!! hahaha.

[eternal]

I told you before I'm a big fan of Dunn. When I began to read how much of this "justification" language was geared towards jew/gentile relationships, and then with the work of cats like Wink and various liberation theologians and got clued into how deep "reconciliation" ran and how Christ's mission is the reconciliation of ALL THINGS...I began seeing this whole thing in a whole new way.

You speak of "covenantal" language...which is not what I really use a lot, but I grasp it, at least to the extent that I am familiar. But that concept of covenant in the OT, collective identity, Israel being that people that were to live out faithfuly God's charge to the world, in fact the order He created the world, and then of course this being commissioned in the NT to recognize that it is not soley a country that is commissioned to this, but to all who believe in the promise...it's deep, and changed how I looked at the cross in a mighty way.

The cross is seen too often as a "get out of hell free card." That kind of thinking is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY missing the point.

[king neb]

i've read next to nothing of Dunn. Bits and pieces here and there. I'm more familiar with Wright. I know Wright has made those connections and i certainly think there is something there, though i can't go with Wright all the way. Ultimately, Wright runs into the same problems the reformed do - the 'already/not yet' is still happening. And they both divorce the 'already/not yet' from the two covenants, which is why I emphasize covenant as much as i do. that is key for me, just as Ezekiel points out...an everlasting covenant of peace.

so what you have in Paul's day is one covenant made obsolete thru the cross and growing old and ready to vanish, with the new one being established and growing to a state a maturity. this process was finished at the coming of Christ, in which the old was destroyed forever.

the end result is a completed edifice, a completed Temple, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, in which God tabernacles. notice that the end result in Rev. is a direct quote from Ezekiel 37:

27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

it is a covenant, unlike the old, that empowers us to fulfill its terms because we have been re-birthed. A new people. A new community. a new 'heavens and earth'. and of course, that only by the work of Christ, our federal head, the new adam. my justification is based on His work and His alone and i am justified because I am in Him.

you run into problems, whether with Wright or traditional reformed theology, when you drag this 'already/not yet' on for 2,000 years and counting.

and of course, this will effect who you choose to 'reconcile' with as many are being dismissed as reprobates because they don't align themselves to a 3rd century creed based on an 'already/not yet' paradigm foreign to Paul's and Ezekiel's covenantal framework.

its all related and intertwined.

[eternal]

You are right about the now/not yet still ocurring in that system.

May I ask, is there ANYTHING that is still of a "now/not yet" variety, as far as you can tell?

I would also like to have further clarity on what you mean by,

"And of course, this will effect who you choose to 'reconcile' with as many are being dismissed as reprobates because they don't align themselves to a 3rd century creed based on an 'already/not yet' paradigm foreign to Paul's and Ezekiel's covenantal framework."

[king neb]

'May I ask, is there ANYTHING that is still of a "now/not yet" variety, as far as you can tell?"

Covenantally? No. Salvation wise? No. I am as 'saved' as i will ever be. I am as ‘holy’ as I will ever be because none of that depended on me to begin with. I fulfill Torah by my walk in the "Spirit". I can't fulfill it any more than what i am doing now. I am IN Christ and you can’t get more IN that what you’re IN NOW under the New Covenant. Was there ‘more’ in Paul’s generation? Yes. That was the transitional generation, never to be repeated. II Corinthians 3 makes this extremely clear. Experientially? I don’t know. I’m sure my experience of it will be greater when I die, but I have no idea what that will look like and frankly, nobody does.

My point in that last paragraph (and I apologize for the poor wording) was simply that our doctrine is linked to our practice. Vic doesn’t see a need to ‘reconcile’ with me, because in his paradigm I’m not in the camp to begin with. You don’t reconcile with ‘heretics’. His wrong assessment of me stems from bad theology. Futurism, in general, adds a lot to the Gospel that isn’t there and in turn adds more to the list of things you have to agree with to be ‘in’. A proper understanding of Ezekiel would knock all that nonsense off. I don’t know if that helps, but basically my point is that I think we (traditional eschatology in general) have made things more complicated and have added stuff to the Scripture. And the more you add, the more there is to fight over, split over and the like.

Adding a 2,000 year now and not yet to Paul’s Gospel begs for trouble. It has created most of the mess we see in theological debates today – tongues, no tongues. Post, a, pre, dispensationalism, theonomy, you name it. All the byproduct of reading an assumed futurist eschatology into the Bible that can not stand the test of Scripture, but must be true because Nicene says its true.

[OrthodoX]

Well...my biggest problem with your view Neb, and I do mean this respectfully, is that there seems to be no actual tangible results of redemption on a grand scale. It seems to me that with your view sin and its results are never stopped or finally destroyed.

What I mean by that is that this world was made one in which justice and peace were all there was. We await the cosummation when this world will be completely restored to its former granduer. A world without injustice and oppression. A world without rapes and murders and greed and war. This world is not as it should be, but will be restored at the Consummation.

By the way, I enjoyed our time of fellowship a couple weeks ago. Maybe we can do it again this week? Let me know, I would love to get together over a cigar and talk this out face to face.

Shalom-

DoX

[eternal]

I share the same concern, and I am sure Neb has plenty to reply with.

Especially in Western Theology there is a concept of a sort of eutopian paradise where all was just and harmonious pre fall. Prophets such as Isaiah (and his vision in ch. 2; cf Micah 4; as well as the beautiful vision of Is. 11) seem to paint pictures of what reconciliation and restoration and redemption look like. In fact they all posses the "re" intimating a "going back" and establishing once again type of concepts.

No more wars, violence, fear or animosity between people groups and even animals. All of this is said to be gone. The question that is asked then is, under what scenario?

[the answer]

YES

[king neb]

DoX,

I enjoyed the meeting as well. Sorry i could not meet with you this past week. I have been without my car all week (transmission went out).

On the 'tangible redemption' thing, i guess i could go after that in a number of ways but since you specifically mention sin being done away with I would simply respond by asking, "Where does the Bible teach any such thing?" I don't see anywhere in Isaiah or Revelation ( i mention these two specifically since they spoke of the New Heavens and Earth quite plainly) where sin will be obliterated from the earth. I don't have a problem with God doing that, but you're going to have to show me where it is in the text.

Add to that the simple fact that Adam, pre-fall, was capable of sinning demonstrated by the very fact that he did. If any view is more consistent in 'restoring' mankind to prefall conditions, it is the preterist view that says that man is still capable of sinning. of course, the big difference now is that my sin will not get me kicked out of the garden. Christ took care of that. I am in a better position now than Adam ever was without Christ.

Furthermore, what is the result of 'the sin'? Scripture answers that it is 'the death'. It is being cut off from God. Have we not been reconciled to God? Of course we have. So how are the 'results of sin' not being "stopped" for those in Christ? Furthermore, futurism adds an additional problem in saying that physical death is a 'wage' of sin. Well, if that's the case, why do Christians still physically die? I have yet to see a futurist answer this and still maintain that Christ 'died' in our stead. This, along with many other reasons, is why i view futurism as a failed gospel. We are still under the curse according to futurism, awaiting a 'restoration' to a condition supposedly that matches with Adam's pre-fall - yet Adam was capable of sinning.

For the reprobate on the other hand, the result of "the sin" under the New (second) Covenant is, literally in the greek, "the second the death". So again, how are the results of sin 'stopped'? In complete agreement with John Gerstner, i believe the reprobate will continue to sin in the lake of fire, thus incur everlasting punishment. Does Gerstner's view have God failing to stop sin and its results?

[king neb]

Eternal,

Im not sure how you are getting a 'eutopia' out of those passages. What "disputes" are people going to be having in a eutopian paradise? see Is. 2.4, Is. 11.3 and Micah 4.3.