Post by SOLAFIDE on Aug 2, 2005 23:19:07 GMT -5
Okay so the ever so popular debate: Do babies and others incapable of professing faith go to heaven?
MacArthur's Arguement:
People often wonder about the eternal destiny of the unborn, babies, and those unable to intellectually understand the gospel. That question is a difficult one. Unfortunately, the Bible offers us no explicit answer. However, based on several passages, as well as an understanding of God's character and His dealings with men, we can develop a good idea of how He works in such situations.
Second Samuel 12:23 is one of the passages often quoted to imply that babies go to heaven. Though the verse doesn't explicitly say that, David clearly does expect to one day be reunited with his departed child. Since we know David is a believer whose destiny was heaven, we can infer that his hope of reunion means he expected his child to be in heaven. Thus, 2 Samuel 12:23 suggests strong evidence for a heavenly destiny of the unborn and children who die young.
If this were all we had to support our position, it would be admittedly less than stalwart. However, there are other evidences that point us to the same conclusion. First, the Bible clearly teaches that God cares deeply for children. Passages like Matthew 18:1-6 and 19:13-15 affirm the Lord's love for them. Those verses don't state that children go to heaven, but they do show God's heart toward children. He created and cares for children, and beyond that, He always accomplishes His perfect will in every circumstance.
The psalmist reminds us that God is "full of compassion and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth" (Ps. 86:15). He is the God who became flesh that He might carry our sins away by His death on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21). He is the God who will comfort Christians in heaven, for "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death; nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain" (Rev. 21:4). We can be assured that God will do what is right and loving because He is the standard of rightness and love. Those considerations alone seem to be evidence enough of God's particular, electing love shown to the unborn and those who die young.
However, another point may be helpful in answering this question. While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation—whether general or specific—not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:8).
Can we definitely say that the unborn and young children have comprehended the truth displayed by God's general revelation that renders them "without excuse" (Rom. 1:18-20)? They will be judged according to the light they received. Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin—including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord.
W.E. Best's Arguement:
Since death reigned from Adam to Moses, does an act of sin or one’s depraved condition cause him to die? A person dies because of his depraved nature. Christians, as well as others, die physically, regardless of the kind of life they live. How could death reign when sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law? In order to answer this question, one must distinguish sin (hamartia, which means sin) and offense (paraptoma, which means offense, trespass, or overstepping). Transgression, or offense, means to overstep a law. It is sinning against a law. But sin in this verse does not refer to an act of sin. It refers to the sin principle. Hence, everyone comes into this world with the principle of sin, or the depraved nature. This is the reason sin reigned from Adam to Moses. Death could not have reigned without the depravity with which every person is born.
Babies, as well as others, die because of the principle of sin. All are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-3). Hence, God does not look upon infants as innocent or sinless; “...who ever perished, being innocent...” (Job 4:7). Are all who die in infancy safe? Scripture proves that they are not: (1) Everyone except Noah and his three sons and their wives were destroyed in the flood (Gen. 7, 8). Any children in the world at that time were destroyed not because they had committed acts of sin but because of their complicity with Adam in his sin. (2) The only people who were not destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah were Lot and his family (Gen. 18, 19). There were not ten righteous people there. All the children were destroyed with the others. (3) At the passover, the death angel slew everyone in the houses of those where blood had not been applied (Ex. 12). Infants died with the others. (4) Everyone other than Rahab and her family in Jericho was destroyed: “And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old...And the...spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. And they burnt the city with fire...” (Josh. 6:21, 23, 24). (5) During the time of Ezekiel, God destroyed all those in the city of Jerusalem who had not been marked by His messengers (Ezek. 7-9). The Lord said to the messenger clothed in linen, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark...” (Ezek. 9:4-6). They were slain because they were sinful. (6) At the time of the rapture, only the dead in Christ and the spiritually alive who are living will be caught up (I Thess. 4:13-17). (7) Children will not be spared in the terrible judgments that shall come upon the world during the tribulation period. Many religionists claim that children are safe until they reach the age of accountability (whatever that is), and then they are no longer safe. If that is true, what a shame that they are not either aborted or die before they reach that age. If they are safe until they reach the age of accountability, it is an act of mercy to abort one before it comes from the mother’s womb or let it die before it reaches the age of accountability. Every person’s sin took place in the past when he sinned in Adam. Conclusively, no one can prove from Scripture that all children who die in infancy go to heaven. The objector might complain that God is not just. But the objector himself is the unjust one. God is the righteous Judge. All that He does is right. He executes justice.
I, myself, believe that when babies die before being at the age of accountability, they are with the Lord. But Best's arguement does make alot of sense about God being just if He sent babies to hell because we ourselves are unjust.
So if you will just give me you all's opinions to see everyone's stance in this sensitive arguement...
PEACE
SOLAFIDE
MacArthur's Arguement:
People often wonder about the eternal destiny of the unborn, babies, and those unable to intellectually understand the gospel. That question is a difficult one. Unfortunately, the Bible offers us no explicit answer. However, based on several passages, as well as an understanding of God's character and His dealings with men, we can develop a good idea of how He works in such situations.
Second Samuel 12:23 is one of the passages often quoted to imply that babies go to heaven. Though the verse doesn't explicitly say that, David clearly does expect to one day be reunited with his departed child. Since we know David is a believer whose destiny was heaven, we can infer that his hope of reunion means he expected his child to be in heaven. Thus, 2 Samuel 12:23 suggests strong evidence for a heavenly destiny of the unborn and children who die young.
If this were all we had to support our position, it would be admittedly less than stalwart. However, there are other evidences that point us to the same conclusion. First, the Bible clearly teaches that God cares deeply for children. Passages like Matthew 18:1-6 and 19:13-15 affirm the Lord's love for them. Those verses don't state that children go to heaven, but they do show God's heart toward children. He created and cares for children, and beyond that, He always accomplishes His perfect will in every circumstance.
The psalmist reminds us that God is "full of compassion and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth" (Ps. 86:15). He is the God who became flesh that He might carry our sins away by His death on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21). He is the God who will comfort Christians in heaven, for "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death; nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain" (Rev. 21:4). We can be assured that God will do what is right and loving because He is the standard of rightness and love. Those considerations alone seem to be evidence enough of God's particular, electing love shown to the unborn and those who die young.
However, another point may be helpful in answering this question. While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation—whether general or specific—not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:8).
Can we definitely say that the unborn and young children have comprehended the truth displayed by God's general revelation that renders them "without excuse" (Rom. 1:18-20)? They will be judged according to the light they received. Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin—including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time? Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord.
W.E. Best's Arguement:
Since death reigned from Adam to Moses, does an act of sin or one’s depraved condition cause him to die? A person dies because of his depraved nature. Christians, as well as others, die physically, regardless of the kind of life they live. How could death reign when sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law? In order to answer this question, one must distinguish sin (hamartia, which means sin) and offense (paraptoma, which means offense, trespass, or overstepping). Transgression, or offense, means to overstep a law. It is sinning against a law. But sin in this verse does not refer to an act of sin. It refers to the sin principle. Hence, everyone comes into this world with the principle of sin, or the depraved nature. This is the reason sin reigned from Adam to Moses. Death could not have reigned without the depravity with which every person is born.
Babies, as well as others, die because of the principle of sin. All are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-3). Hence, God does not look upon infants as innocent or sinless; “...who ever perished, being innocent...” (Job 4:7). Are all who die in infancy safe? Scripture proves that they are not: (1) Everyone except Noah and his three sons and their wives were destroyed in the flood (Gen. 7, 8). Any children in the world at that time were destroyed not because they had committed acts of sin but because of their complicity with Adam in his sin. (2) The only people who were not destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah were Lot and his family (Gen. 18, 19). There were not ten righteous people there. All the children were destroyed with the others. (3) At the passover, the death angel slew everyone in the houses of those where blood had not been applied (Ex. 12). Infants died with the others. (4) Everyone other than Rahab and her family in Jericho was destroyed: “And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old...And the...spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. And they burnt the city with fire...” (Josh. 6:21, 23, 24). (5) During the time of Ezekiel, God destroyed all those in the city of Jerusalem who had not been marked by His messengers (Ezek. 7-9). The Lord said to the messenger clothed in linen, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark...” (Ezek. 9:4-6). They were slain because they were sinful. (6) At the time of the rapture, only the dead in Christ and the spiritually alive who are living will be caught up (I Thess. 4:13-17). (7) Children will not be spared in the terrible judgments that shall come upon the world during the tribulation period. Many religionists claim that children are safe until they reach the age of accountability (whatever that is), and then they are no longer safe. If that is true, what a shame that they are not either aborted or die before they reach that age. If they are safe until they reach the age of accountability, it is an act of mercy to abort one before it comes from the mother’s womb or let it die before it reaches the age of accountability. Every person’s sin took place in the past when he sinned in Adam. Conclusively, no one can prove from Scripture that all children who die in infancy go to heaven. The objector might complain that God is not just. But the objector himself is the unjust one. God is the righteous Judge. All that He does is right. He executes justice.
I, myself, believe that when babies die before being at the age of accountability, they are with the Lord. But Best's arguement does make alot of sense about God being just if He sent babies to hell because we ourselves are unjust.
So if you will just give me you all's opinions to see everyone's stance in this sensitive arguement...
PEACE
SOLAFIDE
