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Post by ChristVader on Nov 29, 2005 23:34:53 GMT -5
...refuse to deal with CLEAR statemens in Scripture, and choose to focus on the UNclear statements. Not only this, but they subjegate the Clear to the UNCLEAR.
Example:
Matt 16:27-28 = Clear Statement. "Some of you standing here will NOT taste death until ALL of these things happen."
"No man know's the hour or the day" = UNclear Statement.
If I leave my kids at home and tell them "Clean up around the place, and also take the trash out." Shouldn't I at least be able to expect for them to have taken the trash out when I get home? Yes. It is the clear part. But Lord help 'em if I get home and the trash is not out by the road! The other stuff....well, I really didn't give any clarity to, so that one is on me. It is my fault and oversight. But we are dealing with Eterninty here folks. Not a couple of Glad Bags and some recycle bins.
We expect more of ourselves and our children, than we do the one we call our Lord and Master. It looks to me like after most Sunday sermons this God really ought to be ridding the Short Bus.
Help me out here.
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Post by the answer on Nov 29, 2005 23:43:54 GMT -5
Could this be the transfiguration?
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Post by ChristVader on Nov 29, 2005 23:58:35 GMT -5
Answer, did you read all of Chapter 16?
Which one of the 12 died between Christ speech and the Mount of Trans? Shai L, hit me with that early on. lol ahh the good ole day's of Partial Pret! None of them died. And if you say Spiritual, you have folks loosing their Salvation to name just one crazy corner you'll end up in.
Also Answer, were ALL men judged on the Mount of Trans?
Answer is no. It is not the Mount of Trans.
''''''''''''''''''''
Seriously though Answer, why is it that instead of giving an answer as to why Futurist "Do" what it is they do, you try to move a "Clear" statement into the UNclear category? Why is that? It appears to be a knee jerk reaction?
Remember too, I moved from a Hard Core Dispi through all of the Eschatological Positons (except AMill). So I have been there. But I look back and wonder why I would even take Clear Statements and try to make even them unclear. Man its just crazy! Its like a craving or an addiction.
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Post by the answer on Nov 30, 2005 17:24:44 GMT -5
Which one's died? I don't get it?
All he said was SOME who are standing here will not taste death.
Where in that passage does it say anything about judgement?
You mention unclear statements. What is unclear about 'no one knows the day or the hour?' Seems clear to me...No one knows the day or the hour. Simple. What is UNCLEAR is THE DAY, that we don't know. However, it's clear we don't know the day or the hour.
Biblical interpretation has always been like this. You have multiple views on end times, communion, the cross, gifts, atonment, the bible, etc.
At times I feel preterists go to far in their view. I admit, I had the same reaction when I heard CAlvanism. I was like ' there is no way Jesus didn't die for the world' but over time I came to hold to the 5 points.
Same with end times. Ive never really been into it really. I just kinda know that- it is what it is- and what I think about it doesn't matter. Id rather focus on other aspects of the faith. But I have come to hold to many of the points of preterism, thru debates with Neb, u , and others. I don't go all the way, but I have come a long way.
But I don't think 'careful' futurists do what u are accusing them of!
yeah
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Post by ChristVader on Dec 1, 2005 10:58:32 GMT -5
Maybe I missed something here. Judgement? Verse 27.
27`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.
"But I don't think 'careful' futurists do what u are accusing them of!"
What about the verse above Answer? Looks like a careful reading is simple and clear enough.
Once again, you are right, knowing the hour or the day is not knowable. But never is that the issue. Go back to the Child Birth analogy. Because I didn't know the hour or the day doesn't mean I don't have Children. Based on what you are trying to do with this eiesegeted thought Christ can NEVER come back, for as long as it is unKnown, it hasn't happened.
Look again at these thoughts:
1. "Know when Johnny die's". Now as a thought, this stands alone. It is clear. It is tangeble. We can go over and VERIFY that Johnny is dead. Heck, a good swift kick might do. Or we could choose a "long" method of knowing that he is dead such as waiting 20yrs or so to see if he moves or begins to stink or rot. So it is very determinable and a very clear mandate.
2. "You will Totally know Physics". This statement is very ambiguous. It begs the question, as we say of WHEN will I know this subject in it's totality. I have to have a time marker as it has been framed in a Future Context. Taken as a stand alone statement it is a WORTHLESS promise. It tells me nothing. It definatly binds me to nothing.
3. "You will Totally know Physics when Johnny dies". This statement is now CLEAR, as it has been "BOXED" in by parameters that are; CLEAR, Tangible, Definable, Testable, etc. This statement moves from being one of Ambiguity, to a Statement that you can BANK on. Not only that but it becomes a BINDING statement on the Concience, as it requires YOU the recipient to take OWNERSHIP of the implications. It is a binding statement now. This is why we call Dispensationalism "Pure Escapism". They wish to escape the implications of Stewardship and Dicipleship that Scripture mandates. Sure, they claim a form of it. But getting people to say the sinners prayer is not Dicipleship. Preaching isn't either. ( David Chilton got into alot of this stuff with his writtings. That comes to mind as Cruz mentioned him in another thread.)
Maybe this helps some.
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Post by the answer on Dec 2, 2005 19:35:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure what this thread is about any more. Is it about the matt 16 passage?
MAny people hold to the view that the transfiguration is the fulfilment of that promise Jesus made. MAybe they are wrong, I was just offering an alternate view.
I agree we can know the signs that his return is near. Where I disagree with full preterists is that IT"S ALL OVER. He given rewards and everything. That I don't buy.
It isn't as CLEAR as u think. People smarter then u and me disagree on what that passage means. As well as the other scripts cited.
Your beef is with futurists hermenutics?
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Post by ChristVader on Dec 2, 2005 20:15:15 GMT -5
Yes, I would say it is definatly a Herminutic issue.
So what do you believe Full Preterist believe about all that stuff?
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Post by the answer on Dec 3, 2005 4:41:33 GMT -5
all what stuff?
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Post by ChristVader on Dec 3, 2005 9:41:15 GMT -5
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Post by the answer on Dec 3, 2005 17:23:48 GMT -5
oh ok
Well nearly every passage dealing with end times
MAtt 24, 1 cor 15( sort of) 1thess, REvelation
All im saying is that there are different views. I don't see escatology as a ESSENCIAL of whether or not I should embrace ya'll as brothers in Jesus. MAybe Im wrong, but at this point nothing has made me think that u all aren't in Christ.
Your example I don't think is futurists taking CLEAR and UNCLEAR - mixing them up- making a dumb position. There are many who could argue well for a futurist view.
Im not one of them
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Post by ChristVader on Dec 3, 2005 17:47:11 GMT -5
Thats cool.
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