Eternal Sinning

[king neb]

Recently, I have been reading some stuff on the annihilationist debate. I’ll eventually get to William Fudge’s book promoting annhilationism and I am currently reading John Gerstner’s response, “Repent or Perish.” During my reading, I read something that really got my attention and is another reason I’m convinced that many anti-preterists either don’t read what the ‘orthodox’ camp put out or at least don’t read it carefully.

One of the main arguments against the teaching that Christ has returned is that it supposedly makes God a failure in doing away with sin forever. It is argued that if sin continues forever, God is a failure in that He never defeats sin.

First, it must be noted that the obliteration of sin is not taught in the Bible. We are told by the Futurists that during the time of Rev. 22, when the New Jerusalem is reality, sin will be no more. Yet, Scripture has this to say:

Revelation 22:14-15 'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; 15 and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sleepermongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

If all the non-elect are in the ‘lake of fire’ and salvation has closed its doors during this supposedly post-history time, (which the text never says) how is it that people “may enter into the city”? And how is it that those outside the gates are ‘doing a lie’? ‘Doing a lie’ is sinning, is it not?

But even if that doesn't satisfy you, consider Gerstner. For those of you who don’t know, Dr. John Gerstner (1914-1996) was a Professor of Church History at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. He earned both a Master of Divinity degree and a Master of Theology degree from Westminster Theological Seminary. He earned his Doctor of Philosophy degree from Harvard University in 1945. Dr. Gerstner was known as an authority on the theology and life of Jonathan Edwards.

Sounds like a champion for ‘orthodoxy’, wouldn’t you say?

And now we quote him from ‘Repent or Perish’, page 71:

“There is also a biblical, theological reason to believe that the punishment must be eternal even if the word aion were not used at all. If the impenitent sinners were assigned to their own adobe, their suffering would be everlasting if God were Punisher, because He could and would keep the impenitent sinner alive forever because the impenitent sinners do not repent in the next world. Punishment never changes people’s attitudes. It can change behavior, when behavior modification terminates the punishment. But God is the Searcher of hearts who is never satisfied with mere outward change, if it is made. So God’s punishment would go on forever because the sinner continues to sin and incur God’s punishment. Lest God be mocked, whatever a man sows, that he must reap as long as he sows, which is forever and forever.”

Did you catch that? One of Gerstner’s arguments for ‘eternal punishment’ is that the “sinner continues to sin” and that forever. Hmmm…

Which of the ‘orthodox’ here will charge Gerstner of making God a failure?

I await your charge......

Now, if you disagree with Gerstner, that's one thing. You can then proceed to defeat his argument as well as explain Rev. 22.14,15.

But if you agree, then we can go ahead and put yet another failed argument against the preterists to rest.

[the answer]

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I think the text is just saying those who make a practice of telling lies( in this life), will not enter. I don't understand your, 'enter thru the gate argument.' Can u expound?

Also saying the sinner 'contiunes to sin' is an odd statment to me. I think they will endure eternal punishment, but are they sinning while in hell? Running around telling lies? I dunno maybe I don't get his point, but on the surface it seems not to make much sense.

Interesting points tho

choz

[king neb]

I think the text is just saying those who make a practice of telling lies( in this life), will not enter. I don't understand your, 'enter thru the gate argument.' Can u expound?

Sure thing. I believe that John’s vision is the same thing Isaiah saw. That John is not teaching anything new, but teaching what has always been in the Law and the Prophets, specifically Isaiah. And in both Isaiah and the Revelation, we are told that the gates to the New Jerusalem will be open continually:

Revelation 21:24-27 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day- and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Isaiah 60:9-11 9 For the coastlands shall hope for me, the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your children from afar, their silver and gold with them, for the name of the LORD your God, and for the Holy One of Israel, because he has made you beautiful. 10 Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you; for in my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I have had mercy on you. 11 Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession.

Revelation goes on to say that ”2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.” Revelation 22:2

My question for the Futurists is this: They say that Rev. 21.24ff is describing a future time, post history, after God has burned the planet up and judged every single individual and has the elect in heaven and the non-elect in hell. Time is no more. The world is no more (at least as we know it now) The saved are in, the lost are out. Okkkk…then why are the gates to the City of the New Jerusalem open? Both John and Isaiah make it a point to emphasize this. How can you even have “Nations” existing post earth-burning? WHO ARE THESE NATIONS?

Now, John makes it clear that the wicked are ‘OUTSIDE’ the gates, yet he speaks of nations entering in? How is this possible in the futurist scheme?

I don’t agree with you that entrance into the New Jerusalem will be a one shot deal. Isaiah says of the New Jerusalem that “Your gates shall be open continually….that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations’!

John said it as well: The gates will never be shut….they will bring INTO IT the glory and the honor of the nations.

None of this makes sense in the futurist scheme. A futurist scheme would read:

All who are elect will enter in that day that the gates are open, and then the gates will close forever.

The answer, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO SAY THAT THE GATES NEVER CLOSE, THAT THEY ARE OPEN ‘CONTINUALLY’?

I do not believe the futurists have an answer for this. For the Preterist, the answer is quite simple.

The NEW Jerusalem is in contrast to the Old one – the ‘earthy’ city, a symbol of the old covenant. Jesus said this about the old Jerusalem:

Matthew 23:37-38 37 'Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will. 38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house;

Jesus then pronounced that Herod’s Temple, the one they just walked out of, would fall:

Matthew 24:2-3 2 and Jesus said to them, 'Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' 3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

What did the destruction of Jerusalem ‘signify’? The Presence of Christ and the full end of the age. What age? The Old Covenant.

There are two Jerusalems in Scripture – the ‘earthy’ and the ‘spiritual’ and these two Jerusalems correspond to the Old and New Covenants, one which was a type and one the anti-type:

Galatians 4:21-31 21 Tell me, ye who are willing to be under law, the law do ye not hear? 22 for it hath been written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the maid-servant, and one by the free-woman, 23 but he who is of the maid-servant, according to flesh hath been, and he who is of the free-woman, through the promise; 24 which things are allegorized, for these are the two covenants: one, indeed, from mount Sinai, to servitude bringing forth, which is Hagar; 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now is, and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, 27 for it hath been written, 'Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many are the children of the desolate -- more than of her having the husband.' 28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise, 29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now; 30 but what saith the Writing? 'Cast forth the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' 31 then, brethren, we are not a maid-servant's children, but the free-woman's.

The children of the ‘flesh’ were persecuting the children of the ‘Spirit’ and they were awaiting the day that God would come and ‘cast forth the maid-servant and her son’, that is, ‘earthy’ Jerusalem and her children.

And this coming/judgment/end of age would occur soon, within their lifetime:

Matthew 16:27 - 17:1 27 'For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. 28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

Matthew 24:33-34 33 so also ye, when ye may see all these, ye know that it is nigh -- at the doors. 34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.

James, years later, apparently saw all these things for he wrote that Christ was standing at the door:

James 5:8-9 8 be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh; 9 murmur not against one another, brethren, that ye may not be condemned; lo, the Judge before the door hath stood.

Revelation 22:10-12 10 And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; 11 he who is unrighteous -- let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy -- let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous -- let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified -- let him be sanctified still: 12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (same wording of Matthew 16 in which was said that he would return before some of them standing there died)

The New Jerusalem is the mature body of Christ, the Church, completely weaned off the old covenant. The Church is the fulfillment to the ‘earthy Jerusalem’ type. Therefore, today, the New Jerusalem is a present reality and has ‘come down from Heaven’ and in her gates salvation is found. The wicked are outside “27 and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but -- those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.” Revelation 21:27

And to this, there is no end, because the ‘end’ in the Bible is the end of the Old Covenant age, not of planet earth; THUS, the gates to the Church are CONTINUALLY OPEN as we invite the nations to be healed and “Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely” and be joined to the Holy City in which God Almighty dwells, the city that is not bound by ‘flesh’ or dirt, the city in which there is no Jew nor Gentile – we preach the “eternal gospel” (Revelation 14:6) and government of Christ, of which ‘increase has no end’. (Is. 9)

[the answer]

Hey neb...I wanna deal with this more, I hop ei ill have time when I get back for Bible study tonight

I get u now

[DoGMaTiX]

Hmmmm...I will pull out the book from my shelf and read it for myself before I comment. I like to see things in its context, not that Neb didn't but I like to see for myself. As for now I don't hold to the sinning forever even in hell view because one sin a person commits is worthy of eternal punishment in the first place.

one

[the answer]

yeah..that was what I was thinking.. I didn't have a chance to get to his post last night

I hope i will have time today

[king neb]

yank that puppy..have fun getting around that one...lol....( :

[the answer]

My question for the Futurists is this: They say that Rev. 21.24ff is describing a future time, post history, after God has burned the planet up and judged every single individual and has the elect in heaven and the non-elect in hell. Time is no more. The world is no more (at least as we know it now) The saved are in, the lost are out. Okkkk…then why are the gates to the City of the New Jerusalem open? Both John and Isaiah make it a point to emphasize this. How can you even have “Nations” existing post earth-burning? WHO ARE THESE NATIONS?

This is just an observation(s), I’m not even saying I would hold to this, but I’m throwing it out there.

What is the problem with the gates being open? I believe God is gonna create a new heaven and earth. In other words, we will be able to go back and forth from heaven and earth. Maybe that is why the gates are still open, for the futurist.

Also we are told that ‘every tribe, nation, language’ will worship the lamb. Nations will be in heaven. Tribes will be in heaven. Africans, Chinese, whites, Mexicans.

I can’t see this being fulfilled in the church either. ( even tho your view fits well..in some respects) But there are somethings that don’t add up for me.

They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads

I haven’t seen the face of Jesus.

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

I’m looking outside and it’s nighttime!

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

I know big churches are doing landscaping nowadays…but I have never seen this!

It just doesn’t seem like the description that John is giving totally reflects the church now on earth.

[king neb]

the answer,

sorry for the delay...i've been pretty sick lately, so when im not working im sleeping...i will try to offer some thoughts on the new jerusalem tonight or tomorrow. thanks bro.

[king neb]

“What is the problem with the gates being open? I believe God is gonna create a new heaven and earth. In other words, we will be able to go back and forth from heaven and earth. Maybe that is why the gates are still open, for the futurist.

Also we are told that ‘every tribe, nation, language’ will worship the lamb. Nations will be in heaven. Tribes will be in heaven. Africans, Chinese, whites, Mexicans.

I can’t see this being fulfilled in the church either. ( even tho your view fits well..in some respects) But there are somethings that don’t add up for me.”

So, I’m taking this to mean that you believe that the New Jerusalem will actually be a physical building? Is that correct? If so, you kinda surprised me on that one – typically, you only hear that from Dispensationalists.

I believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church, the body of Christ, the New Man, etc. These are all metaphors for the same referent – the elect. And I believe that to teach that the New Jerusalem is a physical building is to rob the Church of a most glorious and beautiful picture of who WE are in Christ.

Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; 2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, 'Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,

The first thing to point out is that the City is also the ‘Bride’ of Christ. Do you believe that Christ’s bride is a physical building – like ‘glorified’ cement or something? ;D

Second, notice the announcement made when this City descends from Heaven – “'Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them.” This basically answers that first question: the ‘tabernacle’ is not a physical building but is God’s people themselves – WE are the City!

Revelation 3:12 12 He who is overcoming -- I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of my God, and without he may not go any more, and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, that doth come down out of the heaven from my God -- also my new name.

Do you believe that God will physically turn you into a stone ‘pillar’ of some future physical building for God to dwell in?

Ephesians 2:19-22 19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, 20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner -stone, 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy sanctuary in the Lord, 22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Again, do you believe that Christ is actually a physical stone of a physical building? No way Jose’! This is metaphorical language. Christ is the chief corner stone, we are ‘stones’ and ‘pillars’ as well, of a ‘habitation of God IN THE SPIRIT.’ There’s Paul spiritualizing things again.

This leads me back to Matthew 24. When Christ declared the destruction of the physical Herodian Temple, the disciples then asked:

Matthew 24:2-3 2 and Jesus said to them, 'Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' 3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

You see, the NEW Jerusalem is what would replace the OLD one. The destruction of the OLD one was what “SIGN”ified “thy presence”. Is this not the same thing we saw in Revelation? What was the goal in Rev. 21? God was coming to ‘dwell with man’ and according to Scripture, this ‘coming’ to dwell would be signified by the destruction of the former ‘dwelling’ of God. This is all COVENANTAL language.

Now, you have to wonder why God needs to ‘signify’ His Presence? Hmmmm….

John 14:1-4 'Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe; 2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you; 3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be; 4 and whither I go away ye have known, and the way ye have known.'…..

People love to qoute these verses, but they usually do not keep reading…..

John 14:18-23 18 'I will not leave you bereaved, I come unto you; 19 yet a little, and the world doth no more behold me, and ye behold me, because I live, and ye shall live; 20 in that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you; 21 he who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me, and he who is loving me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.' 22 Judas saith to him, (not the Iscariot), 'Sir, what hath come to pass, that to us thou are about to manifest thyself, and not to the world?' 23 Jesus answered and said to him, 'If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make;

Those are not concrete mansions in verse 2. The ‘adobe’ of God is US, His PEOPLE! – “I in You”.

Furthermore, notice that Judas asked, “How will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world?” Now wait a second…if Christ is referring to His future, end of time, earth burning Coming (per amills and postmills), then why in the world did Judas ask about Christ manifesting Himself to them and not the world?

Also, notice that Young’s correctly brings out the Greek word “mello” – ‘about to manifest.’ Again, I quote the ‘orthodox’ postmillennialist, Kenneth Gentry:

“Certainly it is true that the verb mello can indicate simply “destined,” or it can be employed in a weakened sense as a periphrasis for the future tense. Nevertheless, when used with the aorist infinitive – as in Revelation 1:19 – the word’s preponderate usage and preferred meaning is: “be on the point of, be about to.” The same is true when the word is used with the present infinitive, as in Rev 3:10. The basic meaning in both Thayer and Abbott-Smith is: “to be about to.” Indeed, mellein with the infinitive expresses imminence (like the future).”

‘about to manifest’ is melleis emphanizein” and guess what form emphanizein is in? Present Infinitive.

Christ was ‘about to’ ‘signify’ His ‘presence’ with the destruction of the old ‘temple’, to dwell with the True Church, His Body, the NEW City.

And of course, John knows this ‘about to’ stuff as well:

Revelation 22:6-7 6 And he said to me, 'These words are stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly: 7 Lo, I come quickly; happy is he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'…. 10 And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

“They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads
I haven’t seen the face of Jesus.”

Again ‘the answer’, this is covenantal language, and figurative at that. Do you actually believe that Christ is going to write ‘Yeshua’ on your forehead with a ‘permanent’ marker? come on bro. ;D

Seeing God’s face hints to us the fact that the whole community of the elect are now considered priests serving in the Temple and are privileged to ‘see God’s face’ in the new holy of holies. In Exodus 28 we see that the phrase “holy to the Lord” was written on the turban of the priest. Thus, in the New Temple, we have the name of God written on our foreheads, in a figurative sense, again to emphasize the nature of our privilege as Priests in the Holy of Holies. John is not talking about some physical mark on our foreheads, but is using the ‘priestly’ imagery of Exodus to drive home New Covenantal realities that we have ‘in Spirit’.

THIS IS ALL COVENANTAL LANGUAGE brother.

Please, do not minimalize the tremendous, glorious blessing and status we NOW have as a Church by taking this as dead wooden literalism. It’s a book of symbols and symbols that are rooted in the Scripture (OT). Either that, or you have us as concrete pillars in a physical temple with “Yeshua” stamped on our concrete heads.

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

I’m looking outside and it’s nighttime!

Again brother, you’re looking in the wrong place. John is not contrasting 21st century days at the beach with futurist realities. He’s contrasting COVENANTS. What does you looking out your window have to do with the Covenants and the NT Church eagerly awaiting the consummation of the New Covenant and full end of the Mosiac age?

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

I know big churches are doing landscaping nowadays…but I have never seen this!

It just doesn’t seem like the description that John is giving totally reflects the church now on earth.

Brother, brother, brother, ditto above.

I would highly recommend you reading G.K. Beale’s commentary on Revelation. (Eerdmans Press) Beale is not a Preterist, but he’s takes almost the same approach I do. In fact, we are using him on a Wed. night study thru Revelation. He would not agree with any of what you have implied. Brother, immerse yourself in John’s Scripture (OT) This is the language of ‘the Revelation’. Learn it’s symbols from Ezekiel and Isaiah and Moses, not pictures of landscaping on the internet.

[the answer]

wow..I gotta dig deep...nice response...I will get back to u as soon as i can have time to fully get on it

chea