Hosea 8:4

[king neb]

the answer,

does that sign say 'werd' or 'weird', because if it says 'weird', i'll have to amen that in ligh tof your last post. lol.

[eternal]

Maybe the "weird" would be a refference to your avatar... ;D

[king neb]

haha..watch it..i got a copy of your photo and i've got a nice photo editing program...lol...

[eternal]

kingneb said:

haha..watch it..i got a copy of your photo and i've got a nice photo editing program...lol...

haha

[the answer]

kingneb said:

the answer,

does that sign say 'werd' or 'weird', because if it says 'weird', i'll have to amen that in ligh tof your last post. lol.

it says 'werd'

What is weird about my post?

[king neb]

answer,

on what logical and biblical grounds can you seperate God's sovereignty over salvation choices vs. 'regular' ones? Scripture please.

[the answer]

well,

Jesus said no one comes to me unless the Father draws him. Does that work?

It seems to me that we have free will, we can choose to sin, and we do.

Do u think we don't?

[DoGMaTiX]

Answer, what did you think about my response to 1 Kings and James teaching the principle that God does not create sin in anyone?

Same question for you Eternal

[king neb]

answer,

yes, i affirm that God chose us and that God had to 'draw/drag' us to Him. But again, my question for you is how are you able to say that God doesn't 'draw' in other areas of life as well?

I dont see any reason to stop God's sovereignty at salvation choices.

[king neb]

Rick,

"Answer, what did you think about my response to 1 Kings and James teaching the principle that God does not create sin in anyone? Same question for you Eternal"

1.) You didn't address my argument.
2.) Since you are in the mood asking eternal questions, ask eternal what he thinks about your 'free will' definition and which view is more consistent.

[DoGMaTiX]

kingneb said:

Rick,

"Answer, what did you think about my response to 1 Kings and James teaching the principle that God does not create sin in anyone? Same question for you Eternal"

1.) You didn't address my argument.
2.) Since you are in the mood asking eternal questions, ask eternal what he thinks about your 'free will' definition and which view is more consistent.

wow, didn't know i couldn't ask for feedback

Of course Eternal is going to use the typical arminian argument but that was not my question now was it?

[king neb]

Rick,

what's your excuse now for not addressing my arguments...there was not a shred of sacrcasm, etc., in my reply.

[eternal]

dogmatix said:

Answer, what did you think about my response to 1 Kings and James teaching the principle that God does not create sin in anyone?

Same question for you Eternal

OK. For your response to 1 Kings, it is a familiar one. Many people consider the spirit of deception to be one of satan's host, since it is said in other places (ie Eph. 2:2; Rev. 12:7) that they too make up the "heavenly host."

But I think there is more to it than that. First is that the Ahab and Jehosaphat already had an unholy alliance with each other, and that Ahab already had a desire to go into war, because of his percieved strength. This all already took place before Micaiah saw that there would be a decieving spirit occupying the prophets who would support his decission.


With that, it is clear that Ahab was only looking for confirmation, not direction. This is obvious from a few things. First is that he went directly to the "prophets" he knew would suppport his decission. He went to the yes men. We know that he recognized this because of his response to Jehosophat when he requested a "prophet of the Lord" and Ahab went off on how Micaiah never prophecies good but only evil against him.

So the first thing we can see is that Ahab already had his mind made up, and he only wanted the validation for either Jehosophat (which I doubt he needed because they went to war anyway even with hearing the words of "the prophet of the LORD") or to just go through the necessary/customary hoops, even though their decission would not deter him, only bolster him.

So what did the spirit do? It certainly is not claimed that it originated this idea in Ahab. Rather it enticed him further, it allowed him to continue down his path that he already set himself forward in.

And we can see this same principle articulated in Romans 1, where it is said that God gave them over to their evil lusts, and so forth. We can see this in the many proverbs which talks about people getting trapped in their own snare, etc. Ahab established his own sin, and pushed deeper into it. God allowed it to take place, and apparently at times feels it is the best route to wake people up, or also at time for them to meet their judgment. All actions have ramifications, sometimes God helps us in those, sometimes God allows us to be swallowed up by those, for many various reasons that we have to trust Him in, but knowing that we shouldn't have been caught up in that nonsense in the first place.

We know from too many scriptures that God does not lie (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). James 1:26 says, "If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless."

Here it is the position of the person which helps them be decieved, but it is the person who decieves his own heart. Ahab too was in such a prominent position, allowing his kingship, prominent position, and perhaps even bad theology believing that God would be on his side due to the covenants...he decieved himself, and the prophets allowed him to be swallowed up in that decission.

Deuteronomy 11:16 "Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them." >>> Here we see a warning for people to NOT be decieved, as though this is somehow up to us, not the pre-scripted plan of God. We have to be careful about how we set ourselves up, and how we participate with God.

Check these passages out from John's epistles:

1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous >>>Look at the contrast! It is between the wicked who decieve, and "He" who is "righteous." God does not decieve, as we shall see in his second letter...

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. >>>Now, many decievers have gone out into the world, but who are these decievers? Is it God? NO! It is the ANTICHRIST. God does not decieve. Now does God work through deception? Of course. God works all things together for the purpose of His glory. But the deception is neither a characteristic of God, which then implies it can not be an action of God, for out of the heart do we act.

Now as for James: How can we affirm that God does not "tempt" but He does in fact "script" evil? This seems like double talk. If God scripts evil, then apparently the reason He doesn't "tempt" is because He doesn't have to! He doesn't have to tempt you to do evil or with evil because He has already wired you from before you were born to go and shot your moms. He doesn't have to tempt you, He scripted it.

Now, is this really what James is saying? Not in the slightest. This is a whole bunch of back talk created by systematics trying to make sure their systems work throughout the scripture. Unfortunately it doesn't do service to the passage at hand.

Even Nebs discussion that James is merely warning them...but why warn them to be have a certain way, when they have no control over it? That makes no sense whatsoever. Again, an attempt to impose a systematic in places it does not fit.

Nebs analysis is pretty much on, but he doesn't address the issue. He just says that it wasn't James' concern. Well, yes we agree there was a more pointed concern, but the theology came up for insight in their particular struggle of the time. And it is that particular theology that was brought up that we are looking at today.

James does want them to persevere, and he teaches the same thing John did earlier when he writes, "but each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by HIS OWN lust." That is why warnings are there throughout the scripture is because we as a people are able to do something about it. We are not limp puppets in God's Broadway play. But we have active consciousness, wills, etc. Otherwise these teachings have no reason for existing.

peace.

[DoGMaTiX]

Eternal, good stuff on the 1 Kings.

As to God scripting evil, I believe that God included the sin of man into His plan but did not create it. I mean you do believe that God has a plan or decree for this world right?

How does the arminian view solve the problem of evil?(rhetorical)

God knew that evil was going to exist and that the little girl was going to get raped so why did he create the little girl or even the rape suspect in the first place?

Is God then not evil for not preventing it?

Would you not accuse a lifeguard of evil for watching a person drown right in front of them and doing anything about it? or just throwing a lifesaver and hoping that the person will use his free will to grab a hold?

[DoGMaTiX]

I want to rebutt and defend against the unacurate accusation that Calvinism makes God the author of sin and creates man just to d**n them. Here we go!

This from the purest of Reformed confessions the Westminster Confession of Faith.

CHAPT. 3-Of God's Eternal Decree.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

PLEASE have your bible at your disposal for scripture references.

Eph.1:11- notice "according to His purpose" and "who works ALL THINGS after the council of His will"

Heb. 6:7-notice "the immubility of His council"

Job:42:2-notice "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted"

What do these things mean?

1. Everything that happens is ordained by the Will of God.

2. God is not the author of sin

3. No violence is done to the creature's will.

4. The contingency of secondary causes is ESTABLISHED by this divine foreordination.

These declorations imply a specific view of the relationship that God has to sin and other evils. They are included in God's free and unchangeable ordination, while yet God is not the author of sin. Paradox? No. This is because first, God does not violate the human will, forcing people to sin against it, and second, because the secondary causes that give rise to sin are secured in their operation by the same "wise and holy counsel" to so ordain. God is the first cause of everything that happens, because as the Creator he causes "whatsoever comes to pass." "Second causes" are the LATER things in the sequence of events(like Satan,Adam,or me),from whom sins DIRECTLY proceed. THE SECONDARY CAUSES ARE THE AUTHORS of sin, because they are the direct cause of it. A cause may be ultimate, of which God is the original cause, or it may be proximate, such as the sinner. Therefore the sinner, not God, is the author of sin for the same reason that a FATHER IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF HIS SON'S BOOK.

God created the cosmos as the material stage for the drama to unfold in history. In this way, His eternal purpose to glorify Himself would be fulfilled.

By His providence, He then secured each cause and effect, aiming the whole as well as every detail toward the intended END. He allows nothing to happen by chance, or in error. He has no need to experiment with abstract POSSIBILITIES: "I am God, and there is no one like Me,declaring the end from the beginning"(Is. 46:9-10)

Who, then, can reasonably doubt that God will actually achieve the designed results He intended when He created the world? If you have even a shadow of a doubt about this, I meekly urge you to persue carefully the opinion of the prophet Isaiah especially noting 40:10,13-14,25-26,28;41:4, 20-23;42:5,,8-9;43:1-7,13;44:6-8,24-28;45:5-7,18-25;46:8-13;48:3;55:6-11

It is unimaginable that this prophet could have thought that Jehovah's plans could be thwarted by ANY human alternative. No doubt, sin interrupts God's purposes in an understandable temporal sense, but it cannot divert it or prevent its final fulfillment.

to be continued......

[the answer]

kingneb said:

answer,

yes, i affirm that God chose us and that God had to 'draw/drag' us to Him. But again, my question for you is how are you able to say that God doesn't 'draw' in other areas of life as well?

I dont see any reason to stop God's sovereignty at salvation choices.

My reason is the bible does not say he does. That is your claim. You must provide scriptures that say that God determines what we choose in regular decisions.

For example in 1 Cor 7:39 it says A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.


Now, this seems to me to be a real choice. anyone SHE wishes. You are making the claim that God "scripts" our regular decisions also, so u must provide scriptures for that. i haven't seen any as of yet. What ya got?

[eternal]

Eph.1:11- notice "according to His purpose" and "who works ALL THINGS after the council of His will"

Heb. 6:7-notice "the immubility of His council"

Job:42:2-notice "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted"

Ok…so from these passages you deduce the following:

1. Everything that happens is ordained by the Will of God.

2. God is not the author of sin

3. No violence is done to the creature's will.

4. The contingency of secondary causes is ESTABLISHED by this divine foreordination.

#1 what do you mean by “ordained” since you are simutaniously defending against Neb’s position that not everything that happens, including me misspelling in this post, is scripted by God. So you must have some different understanding of the term, or else you are double speaking, and don’t know what you believe. I am sure the former is more accurate.

Now I agree with points 2 and 3, and am not sure what you mean by point 4. Please explain a little dumbed down for me. Thanks. Point one I would tend to disagree with, but am not sure what you mean by ordained, because of what I wrote above.

With that premise I shall continue. Eph. 1:11 merely says that God’s glory will ultimately be accomplished in all existence, and that nothing is outside of the realm of God accomplishing this. This does not suggest that God scripted for me to go and shoot your moms, but it does suggest that even this tragic event will find God’s glory within it. How can any person, place or act be completely outside the grace and glory of God? Is not all things held together in Christ? Do not God exist through, above and under all things? God will be revealed and nothing ultimately thwarts God, but this is a loooooooong way from suggesting that God scripts it all.

Job 42:2 > Great! When God says He will do something, or promises it, we can take it to the bank. Amen! But again, what is the point of bringing this up here? To make a claim then that everything that happens is because it is the direct plan of God, is forcing a very strange reading into this text. All it says is that we can count on God’s promises.

Heb. 6:7 >> I can’t find the reference you are appealing to, but either way your point is that God doesn’t change? Amen! I believe that as well! But what is the relevance to this discussion, and how do you deduce from this that all things that happen are because God ordained/scripted them?

No. This is because first, God does not violate the human will, forcing people to sin against it, and second, because the secondary causes that give rise to sin are secured in their operation by the same "wise and holy counsel" to so ordain. God is the first cause of everything that happens, because as the Creator he causes "whatsoever comes to pass." "Second causes" are the LATER things in the sequence of events(like Satan,Adam,or me),from whom sins DIRECTLY proceed. THE SECONDARY CAUSES ARE THE AUTHORS of sin, because they are the direct cause of it. A cause may be ultimate, of which God is the original cause, or it may be proximate, such as the sinner. Therefore the sinner, not God, is the author of sin for the same reason that a FATHER IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF HIS SON'S BOOK.

The problem is, if God says “yo, you a sinner, and I am wiring you to love sin, and then not only that but I am going to write it out that you are going to do this that and the other, but you are ultimately at fault because you loved doing it the whole time, and I didn’t violate your will.,” problem is that God created that will to be that way. Humanity then is a passive existence that has no cooperative effort whatsoever in anything that happens. This is very foreign as I said, to all the warnings and commissions found in the bible.

It is unimaginable that this prophet could have thought that Jehovah's plans could be thwarted by ANY human alternative. No doubt, sin interrupts God's purposes in an understandable temporal sense, but it cannot divert it or prevent its final fulfillment.

Who disagrees?

God knew that evil was going to exist and that the little girl was going to get raped so why did he create the little girl or even the rape suspect in the first place?

Is God then not evil for not preventing it?

Would you not accuse a lifeguard of evil for watching a person drown right in front of them and doing anything about it? or just throwing a lifesaver and hoping that the person will use his free will to grab a hold?

I don’t speak for arminians, only myself. I think God created a people just like Him who have freedom, and who miraculously have real lives. This is the greatest miracle, IMO. With that said, He has given us dominion of the earth. This dominion was given to our ancestors in the garden, and has been passed on down the generations to their offspring. What kind of dominion are we excercising? What are the ramifications of our practices? We have tarnished the earth, we have manifested sin, etc. This has impacted the environment, wildlife, and indeed all of creation. We also have an impact clearly on each other. Our sin hurts more than ourselves, and we are all responsible. We are communal by nature, connected to each other, so our deeds are experienced in this same way. Suffering happens at our hands, not God’s. God suffers too, as His breath is in every individual that exists, His presence permeates all being. All things hold together in Him. The kingdom of God suffers violence. Jesus on the cross expresses God’s striving with us in a physical locatable scene and moment, but that action is non stop, God sacrificing, suffering, etc. as we assault His good creation. As we distort His good image.

God created because it was an expression of His love. I think in someways God had to create, because it is His nature to be generous, to share, and to not create and share Himself with a creation would be selfish. I don’t know how dogmatic I am with that, but it sure makes sense in light of who God is, and His character, and how He is true, and unchanging as you said.

But the greatness of God is that He participates with us as much as we participate with Him. Heaven rejoices when people receive Him. God is there in the up times, and with us in the down times. Jesus says blessed are the persecuted, blessed are the poor, blessed are the hungry…God’s comfort is experienced in those moments, but also most exhaustively in the time to come. But the kingdom suffers violence. God is with the lowly, and laments and weeps over the bad in this world.

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

Eph.1:11- notice "according to His purpose" and "who works ALL THINGS after the council of His will"

Heb. 6:7-notice "the immubility of His council"

Job:42:2-notice "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted"

Ok…so from these passages you deduce the following:



#1 what do you mean by “ordained” since you are simutaniously defending against Neb’s position that not everything that happens, including me misspelling in this post, is scripted by God. So you must have some different understanding of the term, or else you are double speaking, and don’t know what you believe. I am sure the former is more accurate.

No sir, I knever said I believed that. I actually agree with Neb on that and always will. Remeber my beginning quote from the Westminster Confession:

"This from the purest of Reformed confessions the Westminster Confession of Faith.

CHAPT. 3-Of God's Eternal Decree.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."


I'll elaborate more point 4 later and respond to the rest of your post

[eternal]

^^So God truly is the author of sin^^

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

^^So God truly is the author of sin^^

Dag holup, lol. I didn't get to elaborate on ordained yet.