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Post by eternal on Sept 8, 2005 18:42:49 GMT -5
I have heard quite a few reports of evangelists and ministers talking about the homosexual population in N.O as the reason why this hurricane swept through. Durring 9/11 many famous evangelists also chose to blame the "punishment" on homosexuals and abortions. As a result, I have seen many in the Christian community begin to discuss this, and give it credibility, citing OT passages of judgment on cities, and saying, "hey homosexuality is sin, and God will not be mocked."
Question: So the thinking is this...America stole human beings from their homes, bought and sold them like cattle, and treated them even worse in the most vile form of slavery for 300 years, and God's response is no punishment, and in fact blesses America financial as a result of this activity.
But have some homosexuals in New Orleans, and God decides to send a massive hurricane to kill hundreds if not thousands of heterosexuals?
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Post by the answer on Sept 8, 2005 23:14:27 GMT -5
I don't know the mind of God. He does things at times that to us, don't make sense.
Are u saying that God could not have done it for that reason?
He did it to Sodom and Gormorrah, yet there were other wicked cites.
Something I heard recently that was kinda interresting. There points being hit by these hurricanes were slave ports. I dunno.
I'm not here to say Katrina was made for Homosexuals, but what if it was? I bow to God's soverignty
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Post by eternal on Sept 9, 2005 1:16:58 GMT -5
I don't know the mind of God. He does things at times that to us, don't make sense. Are u saying that God could not have done it for that reason? He did it to Sodom and Gormorrah, yet there were other wicked cites. Something I heard recently that was kinda interresting. There points being hit by these hurricanes were slave ports. I dunno. I'm not here to say Katrina was made for Homosexuals, but what if it was? I bow to God's soverignty I'm not saying He couldn't have done it it would just require a whole lot of befuddling faith. I mean, a punishment against homosexuals levied primarily against heterosexuals? I have to wonder out of all the major sins of our nation, why our religious leaders continualy pick homosexuality as the one prop us as our great evil. Seems bigoted to me. And Sodom and Gomorah...the religoius leaders love to point to that, yet neglect Ez. 16:49 which says they were destroyed for neglecting the poor. I just find it intresting that the church doesn't speak on that sin of our nation, because most these cats is bankrolling on that particular sin. We need some real prophets to speak. Too bad they don't got TV contracts... |
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Post by the answer on Sept 9, 2005 3:05:19 GMT -5
I'm not saying He couldn't have done it it would just require a whole lot of befuddling faith. I mean, a punishment against homosexuals levied primarily against heterosexuals?
Good point.
I have to wonder out of all the major sins of our nation, why our religious leaders continualy pick homosexuality as the one prop us as our great evil. Seems bigoted to me.
There are many great evils, i'd agree we can over look many. But this is a very serious sin. So much God destroyed 2 cities!!
And Sodom and Gomorah...the religoius leaders love to point to that, yet neglect Ez. 16:49 which says they were destroyed for neglecting the poor.
Are u arguing that neglecting the poor was the MAJOR sin? If so, i'd argue the whole biblical account would point to homosexuality as the major offense. Neglecting the poor, YES, but too many passages point to homosexuality as a main cause, I;'d say.
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Post by eternal on Sept 9, 2005 11:22:37 GMT -5
Are u arguing that neglecting the poor was the MAJOR sin? If so, i'd argue the whole biblical account would point to homosexuality as the major offense. Neglecting the poor, YES, but too many passages point to homosexuality as a main cause, I;'d say. I'm arguing that Christians WANT homosexuality to be the major sin, so that way they can get away with all the sin they are promotting through their theology, politics, and business. I think their homosexuality, if anything, derived from their "careless ease" and "arrogance." When you promote a society that doesn't care about others, and the entire economy and political philosophy is to "get yours" and our very nations success exploits that to the fullest at the expense of others...there is a lot of careless ease, self gratification, and exploration outside of the boundaries of God. Once you find you can be prosperous without obeying God...people seem to feel that all the moral codes must fall under the same precept. |
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Post by eternal on Sept 9, 2005 12:39:55 GMT -5
Here is the crazy thing about it. God don't trip if people don't worship Him. God don't care if people exploit others and cause mass human suffering because of their greed. But if they gay....WATCH OUT! God gona get you!
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Post by the answer on Sept 9, 2005 16:47:02 GMT -5
I'm arguing that Christians WANT homosexuality to be the major sin, so that way they can get away with all the sin they are promotting through their theology, politics, and business. I think their homosexuality, if anything, derived from their "careless ease" and "arrogance."
I can agree that we can focus on homosexuality too much, and neglect other sins. But my point was Sodom was detroyed for more then failing to give homeless pepole a house to live in.
When u say christians want to get away with their "theology, politics, and business" what do u mean?
I don't think the major responsibilty of the government is to take care of poor people. The church was given that mandate. I'm not saying gov should ignore them and do nothing, but I think Jesus spoke to the church and said YOU take care of the poor.
And my argument is the Sodom's major sin was homosexuality. The passage in Ez I think shows that there were other things going on as well.
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Post by eternal on Sept 9, 2005 17:24:51 GMT -5
I can agree that we can focus on homosexuality too much, and neglect other sins. But my point was Sodom was detroyed for more then failing to give homeless pepole a house to live in. That is a falicy ridden way to put it. The primary thread throughout the prophets, is the condemnation not only of individuals, but of INSTITUTIONS, includding government, in their treatment of the poor. Creating laws that were favorable to the rich, and harmful of the poor. These same laws exist here today in America. It aint about giving a house, its about systemicly keeping the poor poor so that the rich can multiply their wealth. This is selfishness and greed, and God cares about it because it demonstrates the wickedness of the heart that one is so debased in their selfishness that they couldn't care less about the pain and well being of another real life human being. When u say christians want to get away with their "theology, politics, and business" what do u mean? Most Christians would like me to only be talking about prosperity theology. BUt I'm not. Because as much as right wing Christians love to bash prosperity teachers, their own track records reveal just as staunch a commitment to that theology, only nuanced in language in order to maintain a semblance of righteousness. I'm talking about our theology of free market capitalism and dressing it in the garb of Christ. I'm talking about things like this: www.nydailynews.com/front/story/343813p-293471c.htmlI'm talking about major Christian figures selling out to the republican party (not to say dems are innocent as well, because they too are in bed and indebted to big corporations), and handing us their trite reworkings of their policies and trying to pass them off as the doctrines of God. Even though when we look at them and their effects, we see that they are damaging the very people that God says we must ensure that the institutions of our community takes care of. This is not merely a personal responsibility, but a communal responsibility, and is always represented as such. The government does what the voting public allows. I know the propoganda machine is strong, and often voters don't realize what they are voting for, but even from a personal responsibility perspective, we must realize how personaly responsible we are for government policies. And my argument is the Sodom's major sin was homosexuality. The passage in Ez I think shows that there were other things going on as well. Why would you highlight a personal sin to serve as the primary motivation for a communal judgment, and allow the communal sin to serve as the background sin? Doesn't seem to make sense, does it? |
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Post by the answer on Sept 9, 2005 18:20:49 GMT -5
Why would you highlight a personal sin to serve as the primary motivation for a communal judgment, and allow the communal sin to serve as the background sin? Doesn't seem to make sense, does it?
Are you saying personal sin cannot result in a communal judgement? Achin stole some stuff he wasn't suppost to and the entire nation was affected. Almost all sin is personal in some way. When u were a youth pastor do u think your personal life if it was in sin, could not affect your ministry, even though the kids might not have been doing things?
If you read the account in Genesis, these men were after these 2 angels, and even after they were blinded they were still trying to find the door in order to rape these visitors.
passages in 1 peter and Jude use language that is far too strong to simply be talking about neglecting the poor. Even in Ezekiel there are more things listed then neglecting the poor..they were haughty, and did detestable things
The primary thread throughout the prophets, is the condemnation not only of individuals, but of INSTITUTIONS, includding government, in their treatment of the poor.
When you say "in their treatment of the poor" what do u mean? Not providing things for them? Not giving them places to live? Like I said before, i don't think the MAJOR responsibilty of gov is to care for the poor. That i think is given to God's people. Gov has some responsibilty...what do u think the gov should do? there have always been the poor, there will always be poor, in your opinion what should our gov do that they are not doing now, or if u were in ofifice what would you do?
Chea
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Post by eternal on Sept 9, 2005 18:58:12 GMT -5
Are you saying personal sin cannot result in a communal judgement? Achin stole some stuff he wasn't suppost to and the entire nation was affected. Almost all sin is personal in some way. When u were a youth pastor do u think your personal life if it was in sin, could not affect your ministry, even though the kids might not have been doing things?[/i]
Of course personal sin impacts the community. That was not the point. What I am saying is that there are two passages discussing the judgment of S&G. One is in reference to the personal sin, and the other is in reference to the communal sin. My point is why would you advocate the personal sin being the reason for the communal judgment, when God just as heavily indicts the communal sin? IF you had to pick one over the other, I am asking why you chose the personal over the communal? I tried to outline how I think they worked together, but the reason I feel most people have a hard time accepting that, is because it means that America and the modern Western Church is facing much more judgment than we thought, and it isn’t really “them” that is to blame despite our repeated warnings, but it really is OUR fault. Nobody wants to accept that.
When you say "in their treatment of the poor" what do u mean? Not providing things for them? Not giving them places to live?[/i]
And I addressed that for you as well. Here is some passages to give a perspective of what I am talking about…
Jer. 22:13 "Woe to him who builds his house without righteousness And his upper rooms without justice, Who uses his neighbor's services without pay And does not give him his wages, 14 Who says, `I will build myself a roomy house With spacious upper rooms, And cut out its windows, Paneling it with cedar and painting it bright red.' 15 "Do you become a king because you are competing in cedar? Did not your father eat and drink And do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. 16 "He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; Then it was well. Is not that what it means to know Me?" Declares the LORD. 17 "But your eyes and your heart Are intent only upon your own dishonest gain, And on shedding innocent blood And on practicing oppression and extortion." 18 Therefore thus says the LORD in regard to Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, "They will not lament for him: `Alas, my brother!' or, `Alas, sister!' They will not lament for him: `Alas for the master!' or, `Alas for his splendor!' 19 "He will be buried with a donkey's burial, Dragged off and thrown out beyond the gates of Jerusalem.
Isa. 58: 3 `Why have we fasted and You do not see? Why have we humbled ourselves and You do not notice?' Behold, on the day of your fast you find your desire, And drive hard all your workers. 4 "Behold, you fast for contention and strife and to strike with a wicked fist. You do not fast like you do today to make your voice heard on high. 5 "Is it a fast like this which I choose, a day for a man to humble himself? Is it for bowing one's head like a reed And for spreading out sackcloth and ashes as a bed? Will you call this a fast, even an acceptable day to the LORD ? 6 "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? 7 "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh? 8 "Then your light will break out like the dawn, And your recovery will speedily spring forth; And your righteousness will go before you; The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. 9 "Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; You will cry, and He will say, `Here I am.' If you remove the yoke from your midst, The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness, 10 And if you give yourself to the hungry And satisfy the desire of the afflicted, Then your light will rise in darkness And your gloom will become like midday.
Isaiah 10:1 Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions, 2 So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans. 3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth?
Micah 2:1 Woe to those who scheme iniquity, Who work out evil on their beds! When morning comes, they do it, For it is in the power of their hands. 2 They covet fields and then seize them, And houses, and take them away. They rob a man and his house, A man and his inheritance.
James 5:3-5 3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! 4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.
Exodus 23:6 "You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute.
Amos 5: 10 They hate him who reproves in the gate, And they abhor him who speaks with integrity. 11 Therefore because you impose heavy rent on the poor And exact a tribute of grain from them, Though you have built houses of well-hewn stone, Yet you will not live in them; You have planted pleasant vineyards, yet you will not drink their wine. 12 For I know your transgressions are many and your sins are great, You who distress the righteous and accept bribes And turn aside the poor in the gate. 13 Therefore at such a time the prudent person keeps silent, for it is an evil time. 14 Seek good and not evil, that you may live; And thus may the LORD God of hosts be with you, Just as you have said! 15 Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate! Perhaps the LORD God of hosts May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
Jer 5: 26 `For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch men. 27 `Like a cage full of birds, So their houses are full of deceit; Therefore they have become great and rich. 28 `They are fat, they are sleek, They also excel in deeds of wickedness; They do not plead the cause, The cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; And they do not defend the rights of the poor. 29 `Shall I not punish these people?' declares the LORD, `On a nation such as this Shall I not avenge Myself?'
Is. 3: 14 The LORD enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people, "It is you who have devoured the vineyard; The plunder of the poor is in your houses. 15 "What do you mean by crushing My people And grinding the face of the poor?" Declares the Lord GOD of hosts. 16 Moreover, the LORD said, "Because the daughters of Zion are proud And walk with heads held high and seductive eyes, And go along with mincing steps And tinkle the bangles on their feet, 17 Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare." 18 In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments, 19 dangling earrings, bracelets, veils, 20 headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets, 21 finger rings, nose rings, 22 festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses, 23 hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils. 24 Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty. 25 Your men will fall by the sword And your mighty ones in battle. 26 And her gates will lament and mourn, And deserted she will sit on the ground.
Ex. 22:21 "You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 22 "You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. 23 "If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry; 24 and My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.
Is. 1: 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
Mark 12:40 who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Leviticus 19:15 `You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
Deuteronomy 1:17 `You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's. The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.'
Deuteronomy 10: 17 "For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18 "He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing.
Amos 2: 6 Thus says the LORD, "For three transgressions of Israel and for four I will not revoke its punishment, Because they sell the righteous for money And the needy for a pair of sandals. 7 "These who pant after the very dust of the earth on the head of the helpless Also turn aside the way of the humble;
Ps. 94: 20 Can a throne of destruction be allied with You, One which devises mischief by decree? 21 They band themselves together against the life of the righteous And condemn the innocent to death. 22 But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge. 23 He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil; The LORD our God will destroy them.
This is what I am talking about a Nations responsibility to the poor. And a nations responsibility for not allowing people to take advantage of the poor, and how the prophets of God condemned the government when it allowed such exploitation to take place, through laws, and other policies that favored the rich. Doesn’t this sound like America and all our lobbyists, obligations to the rich corporations, etc? Our whole system allows and depends on the exploitation of the less fortunate. This is sinful, and God is not pleased. Funny how He spends so much time talking about this throughout the scriptures, and hardly ever talks about homosexuality, yet todays religious leaders constatntly want to blame all our problems on the gays, and give the corporations a free pass.
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Post by the answer on Sept 11, 2005 1:24:28 GMT -5
i'll reply monday...chea
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Post by DoGMaTiX on Sept 12, 2005 8:25:26 GMT -5
I also find it annoying that pastors only want to point out the homosexuality of the city. I think that it is one of the MANY sins of that city like gambling, the high murder rate, the high drug trafficing, and most of all the pagan ritual festivals that occur there every year like Mardi Gras but there are many other parades they celebrate. But to just point out the Gay society is ridiculous. I say its the result of the unashamed SIN in general that is the problem, and the Unites States better brace itself for more disasters like this one. San Francisco, Las Vegas anyone?
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Post by eternal on Sept 12, 2005 10:07:24 GMT -5
Maybe Wall Street? The Twin Towers were pretty symbolic, but of course the easiest connotation for punishment was burried and instead we blamed it on gays. Pentagon too...
I think the whole idea though of calling one city out over the next among us is where we see some faulty thinking. Because we ALL contribute to the suffering of people by our contribution and participation in a system that wreaks that pain.
You mentioned Vegas, I assume primarily because of prostitution and gambling. While I disagree that gambling is a sin, prostitution is intresting. Jesus actually deffended prostitutes from judgment in His time on earth, yet continualy raked over the rich and powerful. Yet today, we flip that completely and defend the rich and powerful and rake over the prostitutes. I wonder if there is a "mana" influence there?
I agree with unashamed sin. I guess the difference is that I see our economic sin being so great and such an influencer in this world that its scope is so grand that its tentacles are in nearly every sin institution in this world. So while we like to merely denounce the manifestations, we give cover to the instigator.
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Post by the answer on Sept 12, 2005 13:16:32 GMT -5
I agree with ya'll.
We have put homosexuality up over these other sins as if it's the only one. WE gotta stop that. I'm with eternal also on gambling. I don't think it a sin as long as u are being a good stward over what u have.
But on the other hand too, I have no problem with the rich. MAny people in scripture were rich! God gave them their riches.
As far as economics go, I see the problem in US ( not united states) believers not doing all we should be. Homeless shelters, feeding the hungary, etc..
The problem with gov is when they do evil to the poor. WHich many of your scripts point out. Does the gov have to provide food? no! Do they have to provide place to stay for homeless? No! Should they? They should provide it in some capacity. yes.
I guess E I'm not placing as big a thing on the RICH as u are. I may be mistaken but I just think the poor are more of a responsibity of the church.
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Post by eternal on Sept 16, 2005 20:07:46 GMT -5
I guess E I'm not placing as big a thing on the RICH as u are. I may be mistaken but I just think the poor are more of a responsibity of the church. Then why such a biblical mandate to the laws and policies in respect to their treatment of the poor? Look at this for a second. The church largely sees the US right now like this...secular left and religious right. I can see SOME merit to that description, but many times I think that "secular left" is much more biblicaly based than the religious right! I believe that if the church were to lead the fight in the defense of the least of these, the world would begin to see the power of the gospel. As it stands they see the hypocricy of the people proclaiming to have been changed by the gospel. peace. |
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Post by the answer on Sept 16, 2005 20:37:23 GMT -5
I haven't thought this all the way thru, so there may be holes but here is my question ....Can u give any NT examples of the gov responsibilty to the poor?
All your scripts were OT...It seems to me like there was a different kind of government. There was a king with ALL power to do what he wants, right? Our system isn't set up for Bush to just "do what he wants"
I agree with the bible, and with your point of view. We must treat the poor fairly. However in romans it says
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
My first desire is that our govenment punish the wrongdoer. They are God's servant. This I would argue is their main purpose.
However, we can do better in our treatment of the poor.
I would consider myself "center right"...When I say that I mean I'm in the center,but most of the time I lean to the right.
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Post by eternal on Sept 17, 2005 18:10:51 GMT -5
You may have missed the following New Testament indictments I had already listed above…
James 5:3-5 3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! 4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.
Mark 12:40 who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."
Beyond that though, I believe the church has completely white-washed Jesus and spiritualized nearly every political statement He made, and now we explicitly miss all the in-your-face beliefs He held and taught. For instance, we see how much Jesus had contention with the Jewish leaders of the day, and the temple system. What the modern western church never acknowledges though, is that the temple system had become an operation of the state, and the clergy therein were dependent upon the rule of the state. The religious leaders were operatives of the Roman rule, mystifying their doctrines and transmitting it into Jewish-acceptability. We love to bash the Pharisees and Sadducees, but give their bosses a pass. Jesus was not ignorant of the intricate dependence and the role these religious leaders played. He knew that by critiquing the religious establishment, He was defacto critiquing Rome herself. And Rome knew this as well.
But Jesus’ political interests do not rest on this point alone. His constant discussion of Jubilee (Lk. 4:18ff; Lk. 12:29-31; Mt. 6:14-15; Lk. 6:33ff; Lk. 16:1ff; etc.) was also a movement towards political hostility and advocacy. On that same theme, Jesus continued to teach that the current political landscape was not what God desired, but rather He sought to establish within the hearts of His hearers the old paradigm of the land belonging to God (a theme of Jubilee itself), and the collective/independent village life of the law. Many of His parables create a picture of the distortion that has taken place due to the imperial rule of Rome, and the casual abandonment of the covenant responsibilities to these principles, including the moral economy of the peasantry.
He challenged the economic and judicial systems of levying taxation and debt to increase the fold of the rich and to break the backs of the poor into submission creating land grabs for the wealthy. Again this was as much theological as political as He believed the land was God’s and was distributed along lines of equality and justice, and not by the measures He saw occurring before Him.
Also, you point to the difference between a monarchy, and the so called checks and balances of our democratic system. However, this distinction is rapidly becoming less and less. The increasing influence of corporate power is developing to such a degree that it is plausible to suggest that they are the primary political power in America. The corporations whose dollars pay for the elections of the officials we vote for. The corporations whose dollars pay for advertising campaigns, etc. Did you vote for Stanford Andress this past election? I doubt you have ever heard of him. Why? Because he doesn’t have huge corporate sponsorship. I don’t know much about him either, but I know he ran. So how can we have an honest economy when the politicians are in debt to the corporations who put them there? Who supported them their entire career? Bush has ideology, but he is also held captive by his corporate sponsorship. The corporations indeed influence so much of our foreign policy, violent or otherwise. It is their welfare that this country depends on, and is most interested in. So the warnings of the prophets and Jesus critiquing the dangers of concentrated wealth and power still ring true today, especially today when we have the façade being pulled over our eyes that every thing is fair and equitable. Back in Jesus’ day they had other mystifications that blinded the populace, and I believe many of the parables were demystifications of the power structure that they suffered under. We need the same messages today.
As for Romans 13, I believe that “systems” and “rulers” are good by nature, but have fallen, just like human beings. The powers are good, the powers have fallen, and the powers are being redeemed. With this premise we have to constantly be on the alert of their failings and call them into the wholeness of communal welfare they are supposed to serve.
HOSEA 8:4 >> They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it.
This in itself seems to indicate that there is more to Paul's subject than what meets the eye. Not every person who wears the purple gown and holds the scepter is of God appointing. And not every government should be adhered to simply because they have the military rule.
Paul is in a unique situation. He lived in a land where there was not much opportunity for political unrest. Death was an assurement. The Christian church was already being suspect...especially in Rome, where the Jews had been expelled and only recently brought back around the time of his writing. Paul is afraid to upset the Roman govt. at that time. There were already general untrust about secret societies in Rome, which the Christian house church would have been counted among. Along with the infant status of the church, and the contention already involved in the remerging of past Jewish leadership with the now reign holding Gentile makeup...Paul didn't want to risk anything.
He did hold here to a certain pacify philosophy. However, we should not read his words outside of THAT context...as well as the context of the preceding chapter which was all about carrying out civil unrest. Romans 12 teaches how to bring about change, and not accept the status quo. Romans 13 must also be read in light of that developmental context.
It must also be read in light of the concept of powers and rulers being fallen themselves. Walter Wink talks about the Powers being "fallen," and being "redeemed" and will too, eventually be "saved." The social structures of people, he argues, are not a bad thing in and of themselves, and are instead even necessary. But they are not being carried out right, and this too must be considered. So then we can submit to the concept and even the "authority" the particular ruler holds, but perhaps not necessarily to that particular ruler himself as he/she misuses that authority. Paul was deemed a criminal, and subversive of the state.
I read this passage as an attempt to make do with the present ruling class for certain, but also as part of a larger testimony to the struggle between the Christian and the fallen powers, and the various tactics of engagement in such situations.
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Post by OrthodoX on Sept 22, 2005 18:22:08 GMT -5
Eternal-
I agree with you about the political relevance and passion of Jesus. He was VERY political indeed. In fact for a christian in Rome to say "Jesus is Lord" was in fact to say "Ceasar is not". I also agree somewhat with your assessment of the politics behind the Temple during the time of Jesus, the Second Temple period. Jesus did not merely make a whip and attempt to clean up the temple from the crooked practices of the money changers as many in our culture wil say, his fierce action there was one of condemnation as his teachings attest, Matt 24 for example...
gotta go...be back with more...
grace and peace-
DoX
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Post by HIPHOPHEAD on Sept 27, 2005 10:49:34 GMT -5
lol. I think Christians try to hard to connect stuff. If the hurricane in LA was judgment, I would have to say judgment of stupidity of for not fixing the levees over the past 25-30 years.
But on the government tip, we as Christian talk to much and DO to little. Especially as Americans, we have a unique government unlike others that affords to make a lot of changes with minimumal disruption. Although, there are alot things we can't change that will continue to get worse because those are just the signs of the time. Sometimes what we do is equivalent to trying to stop Moses or Jesus from being born. lol. Pharoah and Herod failed at those task.
But don't get me wrong. I'm not against protesting certain aspects of goverment and society. It just seems alot what I see is us protesting the result of the problem and not the actual PROBLEM.
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