Tithing! How should it be taught??

[the answer]

I think it should be taught as the minimum we should give.

What ya'll think?

[the answer]

no one?

[DoGMaTiX]

I'm comfortable with the 10% teaching but more with the freewill offering of the heart principle.

[king neb]

I'm sure ill get some flak for this, but this is another issue that reveals the problems with futurist eschatology (amillennialism) on two levels.

1.) Concerning the tithe, it's interesting that Christians who insist on this command from the Law for the New Covenant age, seem to ignore the other 'tithe' commands and their original context.

{Quote from Curtis @ Berean}

1. THE LEVITE'S TITHE.

We are told in Numbers that the tithe was collected and given to the Levites:

Numbers 18:21 (NKJV) "Behold, I have given the CHILDREN OF LEVI ALL THE TITHES IN ISRAEL as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.

The Levites didn't have the privilege of a piece of property that they could work to make their living like the other tribesmen. They were to do the Lord's work in the tabernacle and temple, and so God provided for their needs. Old Covenant Israel was a Theocracy - a government by the rule of God, mediated through the priests. So, the tithe was collected to support the government, it was taxation, and it was mandatory!

2. THE FESTIVAL TITHE.

Deuteronomy 14:22-35 (NKJV) "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 "And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

This is a second tithe. It was taken to the central sanctuary for the Feast sacrifices. It was to promote unity. So, we have the Levites tithe and the Festival tithe; that comes to 20%. There was also one other:

3. POOR TITHE.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (NKJV) "At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 "And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Once every three years there was a special additional income tax in order to take care of the poor in the land. This was the "poor tithe" or "welfare tithe." They were also to leave the corners of their fields unharvested for the poor. Their tithe worked out to about 25% per year. Now, how many of you are giving 25% of your income to the Lord? If you are not giving 25% of your income to the Lord, you're in sin unless heaven and earth have passed away. {end of quote}

Now, concerning the Law, Christ said:

Matthew 5:18-19 18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 19 'Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

How are Christians today fulfilling the Law of the Levite, Festival, and Poor tithes? How could they, unless you somehow 'spiritualize' who the Levites are - we can't be spiritualizing things, now can we? And why are only some of these things commanded and others not? That is impossible to uphold, UNLESS, heaven and earth have passed away. Not ONE JOT will pass until....

Of course, we are told when 'heaven and earth' passed away (Mat. 24) and i believe it, so i have no problems. Amills, on the other hand....

2.) In regards to the 'freewill offering' mentioned by Rick - how can that be used as an alternative to the tithe, as some do? What in world does that offering have to do with us today? Look at the context.

I'm assuming Rick has either 1 Cor. 16 or 2 Cor. 8 in mind, or possibly both? Both, though, reveal something interesting about this 'offering'.

1 Corinthians 16:1-3 And concerning the collection that is for the saints, as I directed to the assemblies of Galatia, so also ye -- do ye; 2 on every first day of the week, let each one of you lay by him, treasuring up whatever he may have prospered, that when I may come then collections may not be made; 3 and whenever I may come, whomsoever ye may approve, through letters, these I will send to carry your favour to Jerusalem;

This collection was for Jerusalem.

Now, 2 Cor. 8-9, the texts used mainly to support the 'freewill' alternative to 'tithing':

2 Corinthians 8:1-5 And we make known to you, brethren, the grace of God, that hath been given in the assemblies of Macedonia, 2 because in much trial of tribulation the abundance of their joy, and their deep poverty, did abound to the riches of their liberality; 3 because, according to their power, I testify, and above their power, they were willing of themselves, 4 with much entreaty calling on us to receive the favour and the fellowship of the ministration to the saints, 5 and not according as we expected, but themselves they did give first to the Lord, and to us, through the will of God,...........2 Corinthians 9:1-2 For, indeed, concerning the ministration that is for the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you, 2 for I have known your readiness of mind, which in your behalf I boast of to Macedonians, that Achaia hath been prepared a year ago, and the zeal of you did stir up the more part,....6-7 He who is sowing sparingly, sparingly also shall reap; and he who is sowing in blessings, in blessings also shall reap; 7 each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love,

We are told in Romans what these Macedonians and Achaians were giving towards:

Romans 15:25-27 25 And, now, I go on to Jerusalem, ministering to the saints; 26 for it pleased Macedonia and Achaia well to make a certain contribution for the poor of the saints who are in Jerusalem; 27 for it pleased well, and their debtors they are, for if in their spiritual things the nations did participate, they ought also, in the fleshly things, to minister to them.

The 'freewill offering' that Rick speaks of specifically had to do with taking care of the poor of Jerusalem!

Why was Paul doing this? I think the answer, at least to someone who honors the "this generation" of Matthew 24, is obvious. The destruction of Jerusalem had been long prophecised and the time was now.

What is really revealing is Acts 11:

Acts 11:27-30 27 And in those days there came from Jerusalem prophets to Antioch, 28 and one of them, by name Agabus, having stood up, did signify through the Spirit a great dearth is about to be throughout all the world -- which also came to pass in the time of Claudius Caesar -- 29 and the disciples, according as any one was prospering, determined each of them to send for ministration to the brethren dwelling in Judea, 30 which also they did, having sent unto the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Dearth is just another name for famine.

Now, why is that when a famine was predicted to cover all the 'world', that they decided to take up money for Judea, specifically Jerusalem? To ask another way: If the famine was covering the whole earth, why just help those in Judea? Would not the Macedonians need help as well?

The answer is, again, obvious.

Right after Jesus denounced Jerusalem and spoke of the Temple's destruction (in Jerusalem btw), He went on to say, 'For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places; 8 and all these are the beginning of sorrows; 9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;

i don't think it's a coincidence that immediately after Acts 11.30, we find this:

Acts 12:1-2 And about that time, Herod the king put forth his hands, to do evil to certain of those of the assembly, 2 and he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword,

Let's see:

Jesus warns of destruction of Jerusalem, Temple, famine, killing, all of which culminates at His coming when 'heaven and earth' pass away, and Jesus adds, as if it was needed, that 'this generation will not pass until ALL these things are fulfilled.'

A worldwide famine is predicted in Acts, James is killed, and the saints collect funds for Judea, specifically Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, of course, falls within that generation signifying Christ's return.

And here we are today, 2,ooo YEARS LATER, saying Jesus has not returned yet and thus 'heaven and earth' have not passed, applying a 'freewill offering' text to us that originally, in context, had to do with the city of Jerusalem, and stratching our heads wondering if 'tithe' still applies today, picking what jots and tittles we want to apply today and leaving others out, which according to Jesus would not be possible UNTIL heaven and earth passed away and would make us 'least' in the kingdom that supposedly isn't here yet....hmmmm.....

[DoGMaTiX]

I will not turn this into a preterist debate once again.

[the answer]

So neb, what do u give? or do u give?

[king neb]

Rick,

of course not. I don't expect much from you anymore. it's an eschatological debate whether you want to admit it or not. explain to me how you're picking and choosing what applies and what doesn't from the Law in light of Jesus' statement in Matt? You can't. Tithing is CLEARLY an aspect of the Law. If Heaven and Earth have not passed away, then you better be tithing! As well as doing every thing else Torah demands.

the answer,

i'll give to whatever i can when i can, but none of that has anything to do with any Biblical commands, other than "loving my neighbor". If my neighbor is in need and i can help financially, i will. that simple.

on what basis can you demand at least "10%"? Where is that taught in Scripture? What is the 'tithe' in it's original context? What relation does the Law, where the tithe is found, have with the New Covenant? These are all questions you have to consider.

[the answer]

My view is that 10% is the minimum u should give of your regular earnings. That is what "tithe" means "a tenth" I know about the triple tithe and all, but the word itself means a tenth.

At the very least, of your first fruits (for us your check), I think u should give at least 10%. It's not a going to Hell issue, but a gratitude issue. People are more concerned about discussing theology, but look at how they give. Where your treasure is there is your heart. If u give 3 dollars to your chruch a year, your heart is not into the kingdom. Pure and simple.

Plus God owns all of what we have and he is concerned about all of it. Not just 10% but the other 90%.

But as u read the new testament we are commanded to practice giving. How do u regulate what u give? Can u give 5 dollars for the year and be coo with that?

[king neb]

the answer,

"But as u read the new testament we are commanded to practice giving"

ok..what Scriptures do you have in mind so we can look at them together.

[the answer]

yeah...lets go slow

2 cor 8

I don't buy your argument that the reason they took up an offering was becuase "destruction was coming" I think it was because Jerusalm was poor!

[king neb]

obviously it had to do something with the poor as well, i quoted the verse above. But that was not the ONLY reason.

so it is 2 Cor 8. (:

ok...where in that text does it say anything about a 'tithe'?

[the answer]

I never said it taught the tithe

In the previous post I stated that giving is commanded and practiced in the church. You asked where, this is one such place.

Again the tithe is never commanded to STOP.( matt 23:23) Jesus said keep doing it. Why didn't he say, u no longer have to do that?

Is the priciple that 10% of what u have should be given to God a bad thing? Since this is the bare minimum God asked for? A tenth?

chea

[king neb]

Actually no, Jesus said nothing of the sort.

Matthew 23:23 23 'Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law -- the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect.

Jesus is condemning the “rulers” of the Old Covenant. THEY were not to neglect tithing as well as the “weightier things of the Law” because THEY were under the Law! (O.C.) Nowhere does Jesus teach in this verse that the Church in the New Covenant is to continue “tithing”. Show me how.

I’m curious then…do you still visit the temple and the altar and practice the feasts then?

Is it your theory that if Jesus does not say to stop doing it, then we should be still doing it, right? (the tithe is never commanded to STOP)

Ok, then what about the other “tithes” mentioned above? Why do you neglect those?

Answer, please answer me this: How are you fulfilling the Law today in taking your tithe to the Levites or to the sanctuary? (Deut. 14.28)

How exactly have you been obeying this?

Deuteronomy 14:23-24 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there,

Now, don’t tell me it doesn’t apply today – for where did Jesus tell us to stop tithing to the Levites?

Once again, on what basis can you pick and choose what you think applies today and what doesn’t from Torah? Simply if Jesus doesn’t tell us to stop?! In that case, I could point out a ton of “Law” that you and every other Christian today is absolutely wreaking havoc on.

Why then do you only stress “tithing”?
___

As far as 2 Cor. 8 goes, the context is clear.

Again, according to Acts 11, the famine triggered a relief effort to the saints in Judea, of which was headed by Barnabas and Paul.

Acts 11:28-30 28 and one of them, by name Agabus, having stood up, did signify through the Spirit a great dearth is about to be throughout all the world -- which also came to pass in the time of Claudius Caesar -- 29 and the disciples, according as any one was prospering, determined each of them to send for ministration to the brethren dwelling in Judea, 30 which also they did, having sent unto the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Now, why Chea are they only giving to the saints in Judea and not the rest of the “world” that suffered as well?

But, for the sake of argument, let’s skip that question and I’ll leave it out for now.

What is obvious though in 2 Cor. 8, is that the context is that of the collection for the saints in Jerusalem.

Romans 15:25-28 25 At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings. 28 When therefore I have completed this and have delivered to them what has been collected, I will leave for Spain by way of you.

1 Corinthians 16:1-3 Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 8:1-14 ESV 2 Corinthians 8:1 We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, 2 for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. 3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, 4 begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints- 5 and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. 6 Accordingly, we urged Titus that as he had started, so he should complete among you this act of grace. 7 But as you excel in everything- in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you- see that you excel in this act of grace also. 8 I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. 10 And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. 11 So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. 12 For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. 13 I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness 14 your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness…….. 2 Corinthians 9:1 Now it is superfluous for me to write to you about the ministry for the saints, 2 for I know your readiness, of which I boast about you to the people of Macedonia, saying that Achaia has been ready since last year. And your zeal has stirred up most of them. 3 But I am sending the brothers so that our boasting about you may not prove vain in this matter, so that you may be ready, as I said you would be. 4 Otherwise, if some Macedonians come with me and find that you are not ready, we would be humiliated- to say nothing of you- for being so confident. 5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to go on ahead to you and arrange in advance for the gift you have promised, so that it may be ready as a willing gift, not as an exaction. 6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Chea, again I ask:

Are you still putting aside at ‘least a tenth’ of your earnings for the saints in Judea?

Now, im sure you’re going to ask me about giving to the poor and “how is that so wrong?”…but that is not what im arguing against. Yes, we can learn from this text a ‘principle’ of giving, but what is extremely clear here is that Paul is not laying down some eternal command for Christians to give “at least ten percent” of their income to their churches. It’s just not there.

This was a very specific, historical collection for the saints in Judea after the announcement of a worldwide famine that was to be delivered by Paul to one Church – bottom line.

[the answer]

I'm short on time here so let me say a quick thing then come back later.

1. No where does God say give less the 10%. This at the very least was what God reqired. They gave more. I understand that. But they never gave less. This is the principle. What is a benchmark? Where should I start as a giver. hmmmm..the very least God required of income was 10%, let me start with that. Eventalluy I will give more as I see needs and as i grow in faith. can u show a passage where God required less then 10%?

Your points are valid about Levites and Judea...but the principle is there.

Jesus is condemning the “rulers” of the Old Covenant. THEY were not to neglect tithing as well as the “weightier things of the Law” because THEY were under the Law! (O.C.) Nowhere does Jesus teach in this verse that the Church in the New Covenant is to continue “tithing”. Show me how.

So, we( the church) don't have to consider the weighter things of the law like love and kindness etc...cuz he was talking to the "rulers"?

I’m curious then…do you still visit the temple and the altar and practice the feasts then?

Is it your theory that if Jesus does not say to stop doing it, then we should be still doing it, right? (the tithe is never commanded to STOP)

Ok, then what about the other “tithes” mentioned above? Why do you neglect those?

We are God's temple. The ultimate sacrifice for sins was made ont he cross, why would we continue doing that?

The tithe was done before the law..so it's more then just a "law" thing. And later it was done under a theocracy. Rule of God. We are not under that. This is why these "other" tithes don't need to be commanded. But the prinicple is carried over by Paul In 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 Paul says,

Do you not know that those who perform sacred services (in the temple) eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar (of sacrifice in the temple) have their share with the altar?

In other words he reminds the church that in the Old Testament economy there was this system in which the Levites who worked in the Temple lived off the tithes brought to the temple. Then he says in verse 14:

So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

The least Paul is saying is that those who spend their lives in the service of the Word of God should be supported by the rest of the Christians. But since he draws attention to the way it was done in the Old Testament as the model, it seems likely that tithing would have been the early Christian guideline, if not mandate.

In other words when we tithe today we honor a principle and plan of God that sustained the ministry in the Old Testament and probably sustained the New Testament ministry as well.

[king neb]

Chea,

It’s interesting that you did not comment on the passage you originally cite as proof…hmmm..

As far as I Cor. 9 is concerned, I agree that those who labor in the Scriptures as elders/teachers should be paid, as a general principle, but that does not force ‘tithing’ into the picture.

First, the Law also required that laborers receive their pay the same day they work. Do you do that?

Secondly, Levites did not get ‘cash’ but food. Why are you handing your pastor a paycheck and not a burger?

Again, im curious…do you practice these things as well? Why not? Why do you only choose one aspect of the funding of priests to carry over into the New Covenant, but not the rest? Seems arbitrary to me.

Also, why do you stop at 10%?! This makes absolutely no sense. As I pointed out above, 23.3% was the minimum Israelites paid, not ten.

Again, you are going to have to explain why you choose that one tiny aspect of it – 10% - and not the rest of the Law. I agree there is a principle there and it’s quite simple – pay those who work for you. But you have no reason to carry the 10% over, especially when you don’t carry the ‘food’ part over. Why one and not the other?

And again, can we get back to the text you cited as proof...

[eternal]

Neb, don't you think if the New Covenant model was manifested entirely in the church today, 10% would be getting off easy?

[king neb]

eternal,

lol...yeah, like owners of lands or houses selling them and laying the proceeds at the feet of the apostles? 10% is getting off real easy.

[OrthodoX]

I am convicted by what I believe is the New Testament Economic. We are to give according to how we have been blessed and according to the heart. It seems that the New Testament requires us to consider different factors when giving. One is that we are to give what we CAN. A christian millionare for instance needs to recognize his role in financing the Kingdom of God. If he can give millions, he should give millions. The not so rich Christian is no less accountable to this, they are to give what they can. For example the principle set forth in Galatians, if you give your money to the fullfilling of your own desires, you will reap destruction. If you give as one building the Kingdom of God, Churches, missionaries, ect., you will reap souls for everlasting life! Crazy responsibility Christians!

We in America are in a great position to see the Gospel conquer the world. Why not get together and aquire equity and wealth for the building of schools and churches and humanitarian aid in the third world? Why buy that new shirt when you dont need it? Anywayzzzz...

Just some syuff I have been personally confronted with. I really believe that if the Church would repent and give what they can, extreem poverty and world hunger could be whiped out within twenty years...but that is another issue.

Also we see this in the Dominion mandate of the creative covenant, we are to take dominion.

How?

Through the living out of the life of Christ in the world.

This definitely entails preaching the Word of God as most important, but not as the only factor. We I believe are to build our own empires to the glory of God and as faithful stewards use all we have for the advancement of the Christian worldview, which alone can erase poverty and hunger.

To answer the question, Americans are definitely not doing enough when they stick to an OT 10% principle, which isn't even the correct interpretation of that law, which I believe Neb has pointed out.

grace and peace-

DoX

[the answer]

Nice post dox

But am I wrong in saying that "tithe" means a tenth?

Regardless of what they gave, tithe means 10th right???