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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 21, 2006 12:57:42 GMT -5
Hey Neb, I forgot what I said in the last post......word for word so lets talk about Mathew 24 and why you think all of it was fulfilled in 70 A.D........ect and why you are still able to think that the new Testement still applies to you today and why you still die and what not.
INLOVE Jnorm
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Post by OrthodoX on Apr 21, 2006 16:23:23 GMT -5
Hey Neb, I forgot what I said in the last post......word for word so lets talk about Mathew 24 and why you think all of it was fulfilled in 70 A.D........ect and why you are still able to think that the new Testement still applies to you today and why you still die and what not. INLOVE Jnorm Are you two just going to discuss Matthew 24? Or full Preterism? DoX |
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 21, 2006 18:35:09 GMT -5
Hey Neb, I forgot what I said in the last post......word for word so lets talk about Mathew 24 and why you think all of it was fulfilled in 70 A.D........ect and why you are still able to think that the new Testement still applies to you today and why you still die and what not. INLOVE Jnorm Are you two just going to discuss Matthew 24? Or full Preterism? DoX I think both for it's hard to talk about one and not the other. But the truth is I just want to study Neb's views. Ortho, I do believe somethings were fulfilled in 70 A.D. But not all things. And as soon as Neb gets on here we will get down to bussiness. INLOVE Jnorm Hey ortho? Why do you call yourself orthodox? Do you belong to the OPC? Orthodox Prespyterian church? |
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Post by king neb on Apr 23, 2006 0:59:27 GMT -5
Jnorm,
sheww..this is a wide-open question. There are literally a hundred ways to approach this. What exactly bothers you about Matthew 24 being fulfilled? And not to be rude or anything, but i would be more interested in hearing how you are able to get around a first century fulfillment, considering:
1. Daniel, whom Jesus quotes, doesn't take you past ad 70 anywhere in his book, ie. four kingdom statue, 70 weeks, etc.
2. You have Jesus warning Peter about things Peter would never see and no one has seen for hundreds of years, unless of course you think we are the last generation, which at this point, is just an arbitrary thing to say anymore
3. You would have to divorce the whole discourse from the original concern, and that being Jesus announcing the destruction of herod's temple, which again, if you are familiar with daniel, daniel clearly linked the destruction of the city and temple with the 'time of the end'
4. You have 'this generation' turned into 'that generation'
5. You would have to take the normal, hebrew, apocalytpic language which was highly figurative and symbolic, and have Jesus taxiing down to the earth on a puffy cloud. Apparently now Jesus did not come in the spirit of the hebrew prophets but made up his own thing and had his own vocab.
quite frankly Jnorm, this whole discussion for me anymore is like talking to jehovah witnesses who insist that the BIble doesn't teach that Jesus is God. i smile at them, pray for them, take them to a few passages here and there, but usually i just come to a point where it becomes extremely apparent that they are denying the obvious and its basically a waste of my time trying to argue with them. its not a debatable issue and neither is matthew 24 being fulfilled in the first century. any one who says otherwise should be the one writing the long posts and explaining how they get around it.
Chrysostom (375)
"But of wars in Jerusalem is He speaking; for it is not surely of those without, and everywhere in the world; for what did they care for these? And besides, He would thus say nothing new, if He were speaking of the calamities of the world at large, which are happening always. For before this, were wars, and tumults, and fightings; but He speaks of the Jewish wars coming upon them at no great distance, for henceforth the Roman arms were a matter of anxiety. Since then these things also were sufficient to confound them, He foretells them all.
Therefore He saith, they shall come not by themselves or at once, but with signs. For that the Jews may not say, that they who then believed were the authors of these evils, therefore hath He told them also of the cause of their coming upon them. "For verily I say unto you," He said before, "all these things shall come upon this generation," having made mention of the stain of blood on them. " (Homilies)
Eusebius (A.D. 325)
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." (Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Ch. 5)
Albert Barnes (1832)
"This generation, &c. - This age; this race of men. A generation is about thirty of forty years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken. See Notes on Mat. 16:28." (Notes, Matthew 24:34)
John Brown (1866)
"It is quite plain that in our Lord's prediction the expressions "the end," and probably "the end of the world," are used in reference to the entire dissolution of the Jewish economy. The events of that period were very minutely foretold, and our Lord distinctly stated that the existing generation should not pass away till all things respecting "this end" should be fulfilled, This was to be a season of suffering for all; of trial, severe trial, to the followers of Christ; of dreadful judgment on His Jewish opposers, and of glorious triumph to His religion. To this period there are repeated references in the apostolical epistles. "Knowing the time," says the Apostle Paul, "that now it is high time to awake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand." "Be patient," says the Apostle James; "stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." "The Judge standeth before the door." Our Lord's predictions must have been very familiar to the minds of Christians at the time this was written. They must have been looking forward with mingled awe and joy, fear and hope, to their accomplishment: "looking for the things which were coming on the earth;" and it was peculiarly natural for Peter to refer to these events, and to refer to them in words similar to those used by our Lord, as he was one of the disciples who, sitting with his Lord in full view of the city and temple, hears these predictions uttered." (Expository Discourses on 1 Peter, vol. ii. pp.292-294 ; vol iii, pp. 84-86)
F.F. Bruce
"The phrase "this generation" is found too often on Jesus' lips in this literal sense for us to suppose that it suddenly takes on a different meaning in the saying we are now examining. Moreover, if the generation of the end-time had been intended, 'that generation' would have been a more natural way of referring to it than 'this generation. (The Hard Sayings of Jesus, p. 227)
Adam Clarke (1837)
"it is literally true in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem. John probably lived to see these things come to pass; compare Matthew 16:28, with John 21:22; and there were some rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these words who lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city; R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it; R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others. See Lightfoot." (Adam Clarke's Commentary On Matthew 24)
Geneva Bible Notes (1599)
"Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This {t} generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(t) This age: the word "generation" or "age" is here being used for the men of this age." (in loc.)
"For within fiftie yeres after, Jerusalem was destroied: the godlie were persecuted, false teachers seduced the people, religion was polluted, so that the worlde semed to be at an end."
Thomas Newton (1754)
"He proceeds to declare that the time of his coming was at no very great distance, and to show that he hath been speaking all this while of the destruction of Jerusalem, he affirms with his usual affirmation, ver. 34, 'Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled!' "It is to me a wonder how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, "All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation." It seemeth as if our Saviour had been aware of some such misapplication of his words, by adding yet greater force and emphasis to his affirmation, v 35 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away'" (Newton, p. 426)
C.H. Spurgeon (1868)
"The King left his followers in no doubt as to when these things should happen: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." It was just about the ordinary limit of a generation when the Roman armies compassed Jerusalem, whose measure of iniquity was then full, and overflowed in misery, agony, distress, and bloodshed such as the world never saw before or since. Jesus was a true Prophet; everything that he foretold was literally fulfilled." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p.218)
John Wesley (1754)
"This generation of men now living shall not pass till all these things be done - The expression implies that great part of that generation would be passed away, but not the whole. Just so it was; for the city and temple were destroyed thirty-nine or forty years after."
St. Athanasius
“When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness had come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed . . .
“The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God,17 and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ.”18
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Post by king neb on Apr 23, 2006 1:18:53 GMT -5
Charles Spurgeon
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
Spurgeon was not a preterist, but he was close and as we see in this quote, he understood to some degree that the 'heavens and earth' was to be understood with first century jewish eyes and ears. A little thing i like to call original audience relevance.
Revelation 22 is not to be contrasted to our 21st century experience as New Covenant christians but in contrast to the old world the jews were under for over a thousand years and were seeing the 'last days' of in the first century.
There are no 'last days' to the New Covenant.
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 25, 2006 11:11:00 GMT -5
I believe that in Mathew 24 after Jesus speaks about Jerusalem he moves on to His own Second Coming.
So the stuff before that deals with 70 A.D. while the stuff dealing with His second comming is post 70 A.D.
Also I see it as a double prophecy that relates to both 70 A.D. and a future time.
INLOVE Jnorm
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Post by OrthodoX on Apr 25, 2006 14:30:06 GMT -5
wow...great quotes Neb.
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Post by king neb on Apr 26, 2006 8:30:39 GMT -5
Jnorm, hey, double your times of refreshing  |
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 26, 2006 17:47:02 GMT -5
Your funnt Neb,
But I want to know why you are a full Pret. Why do you understand scripture the way you do?
I read that article in the other forum about your view of Jesus's ressurection body.
It seems that you guys are making all of scripture conform to your interpretation of Mathew 24.
Oh and about the double prophecy thing.......
I read a Jewish believer once and I heard him say that about Midrash theology.
About how things had double meanings.
INLOVE Jnorm
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Post by king neb on Apr 27, 2006 15:01:23 GMT -5
midrash? lol. please don't start that. i have a guy that comes in to my paltalk room every week and that is all he talks about.
my view is post-rash. It's the condition you're in after that irritating mid-rash.
Jnorm, i don't care what jewish believers think. What did the Apostles say about the matter? there's one eschaton, not two.
You can not and will not find the 'end of history' in Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, etc. The only reason you're pulling the doublemint stuff is because of your presuppositions going into the text. You CAN NOT extract two comings of Christ at two ends in the NT. Show me how you're doing so. And show me from not only Matt 25, but Isaiah, Hosea, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc. as well, from which Paul got his doctrine.
Explain to me how Christ finally came only to establish MORE TYPES!
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 27, 2006 17:33:08 GMT -5
NEB, So you don't think Paul used some of the herminuetics of Gamaliel? Acts 22:3 Then Paul said: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GamalielI was told that Midrash theology has alot to do with Gamaliel. But anyway the second Advent of Jesus Christ is a future event that did not happen around 70 A.D. I agree that much of Daniel is fullfilled in 70 A.D.......as well as before 70 A.D. when the greeks invaded Judea. But there is a part of Daniel that is still not fullfilled. The second Advent has not been fullfilled yet.....nor the time of trouble which shortly preceeds it. INLOVE Jnorm |
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 27, 2006 17:52:16 GMT -5
This is still future
"its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."
"As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
"The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy.""
INLOVE Jnorm
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Post by jnorm88 on Apr 27, 2006 18:07:21 GMT -5
Luke 21:24
"They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
Scripture seems to imply that the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled is post 70 A.D.
Luke 21:25-28
"25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.""
This seems to be post 70 A.D.
Luke 21:34-36
"34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.""
How can this be pre 70 A.D. if it effects all the world and not just the Temple and Judea?
Thus
"32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
Is talking about a future generation. Everything that happened before 70 A.D. still happened before "This generation" passed away and everything that will happen in the future will be fullfilled in the lifetime of that same future generation.
INLOVE Jnorm
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