Christian PORK - is it biblical?

[vic]

[eternal]

sure

Acts 10:10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" 14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. 17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 "But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself." 21 Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?" 22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." 23 So he invited them in and gave them lodging. 24 On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." 27 As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 "That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me." 30 Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he said, `Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 `Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.' 33 "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord." 34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

he later also discusses it in Acts 11.

Jesus said, "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." (Matthew 15:11)

Hope this helps. Let me know if there is need.

[gertzadik]

Check the Interpretation from Peter himself on the vision ...

Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

The pigs in this vision were a representation of Gentiles. It is clearly seen in the context and the direct statement from Peter. Its simple and in plain text.

This does not mean that pork is now clean. Pigs still eat any garbage thats put in front of them ... they do not chew cud ... it is still extremely unhealthy to eat.

Also, Y'shua said it is not what goes into a man that deflines him. In context he is talking about Washing Rituals ... not eating anything we want. If this is the case, drink some Hemlock like Socrates & see if it will defile you. (Im kidding of couse).

peace

[eternal]

So how do you understand Mark's parenthetical comment on that account?

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

And why the refferences to stomach if it is to only be understood in terms of ritual?

And for Peter, he was told to eat, though he recognized the animal as unclean. Was God transgressing His own commandment? Rather, Peter understood that all God has cleansed is good, whether food or people.

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

So how do you understand Mark's parenthetical comment on that account?

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

And why the refferences to stomach if it is to only be understood in terms of ritual?

And for Peter, he was told to eat, though he recognized the animal as unclean. Was God transgressing His own commandment? Rather, Peter understood that all God has cleansed is good, whether food or people.

right

[gertzadik]

A popular teachings was that w/o a ritual washing of the hands anything you eat is unclean.

What Y'shua was saying is that skipping a ritual washing does not make the food unclean ... instead of focusing on the letter of the law (outward observance) focus on that really defiles you- what comes out of your heart.

In context it makes no sense that he would all of a sudden say "Ritualism will never cleanse you ... & by that way you can all eat swine now." Who talks like that? If Y'shua really meant that now all pigs are clean there would have been a huge uproar recorded for us to read.

Look how the Hebrews reacted to Antiochus Epiphanes and his love for pig meat. People went to war over this!

It is clear that he is talking about Ritualism. There is no mention of swine meat anywhere in this portion of Scripture.

Concerning Peters vision-

This is a vision ... it has metaphors. If you believe this to be a delcration that pigs are clean, then you have a lot of problems else where in Scripture.

This means that a literal stone will defeat a man made from gold, brass, iron and clay in Daniel. It cant talk about The Messiah and World Kingdoms.

You have to believe that Y'shua just walks in candles when reading Revelation. Not that he fellowships with his people.

You must also believe that the ekklesia is literally built upon a rock in Israel. Then I guess we dont really attend a real congregation, we have to go to the Holy Land for that.

And of course we could go on and on ...

The bottom line concerning a vision is that the interpretation is CLEARLY and PLAINLY given. This interpretation is given when Peter (a Hebrew) fellowships with Cornelius (a Gentile). It is not to be taken literally, it is a vision- a metaphor.

The interpretation is cleary given for us. No mention of pig meat (in the interpretation).

Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

peace

[eternal]

Interesting, what do you make of Paul's statements in Rom. 14?


Romans 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Is Paul also reffering soley to foods declared unclean due to impropper ritual cleansing?

Likewise, I am still interested in how you reconcile the command to "eat" the unclean animals. It is just a metaphor for welcoming gentiles as acceptable? Thanks.

I would like also if you have time to give your thoughts on Mark 2 where Jesus deffends His disciples actions by appealing to David eating the consecrated bread when he was in need. This too was an apparent "transgression of law" and was justified with another "transgression of law." Thanks.

[gertzadik]

The bottom line is not whether pig meat is clean ... it is how these Sciptures are interpreted. Our discussion is the interpretation, not the plain sense.

Here is something no one can get around ... Nowhere does it specifically say that pig meat is okay to be consumed. BUT, it does say specifically that pig meat is unclean. Read Leviticus 11. The details are being forsaken with blanket statements. The results of this are pretty extent.

So it all comes down to interpretation---

So, we will assume that it is okay to eat pig meat, because 'now all things are okay to be consumed.'

Did the Counsil of Jerusalem error when they told people to obstain from blood and things strangled in Acts 15? Wouldnt cooking things in blood be clean now as well? Paul contradicts himself if he condemns blood, but encourages pig.

The blanket statement of "all things are clean" accordingly does not cover the commandment to obstain from blood. This interpretation makes no sense. Obviously according to Acts 15- Righteousness carries into what we eat! Thats bottom line.

The following statement will clear any matters we are talking with ...

Y'shua, our Messiah, clearly HAD to live a life free of sin. How could he teach his disciples to transgress Torah and still be Messiah? There are HUGE issues at hand here. If you truely believe that this is what Messiah taught- he is a false Messiah.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did Messiah truely teach this way? Its okay to transgress Torah? Yes or no, the answer will open the floodgates.

peace

[eternal]

1) The question at hand (sort of sarcastic but we ran with it) is whether eating pork is biblical. I believe the passages when looked at in unison, answer this affirmatively. Paul says he is convinced that no food is unclean in and of itself. What enables him to say this? I believe it is in concert with the other passages I have cited, along with the understanding of what the contextualization of these laws were intended for in the OT Israel...along with the insight of who Jesus is and has accomplished.

2) I don't believe you have answered my question about Mark 2. I have my understanding of the scripture, that being Jesus says the law serves man, not man serves the law. So then we can not use the law to hurt people, for that is a violation of what the law itself is. I can send you a small paper I wrote on this years ago.

But I asked you this question because I found it relevant to the point you have been making, and I was hoping to learn how you read it in light of what you have been suggesting.

peace.

[quietstorm]

lol @ this thread getting theological

[OrthodoX]

quietstorm said:

lol @ this thread getting theological

ha ha...of course.

I agree with Eternal all the way on this one. I like how he has hinted at the fact that the OT law regarding clean and unclean foods was to point to the one who would make all things clean...the Messiah, "Y'shua".

Jesus is the agent through whom God's plan for redemption is carried. The Old Covenant world and system died at the resurrection of Jesus, this is a new world now...there are no unclean animals/foods. The Temple is gone and the Church is no longer a political identity (called Israel), but a universal Kingdom, no longer held together by rituals and laws, but by faith in Jesus.

This is the point Paul makes in Romans and Corinthians and what Peter learns in Acts.

Shalom-

DoX

[gertzadik]

I'll need some time to reread the post & I will respodn in detail ...

In the mean time I have this question.

If all foods are clean, it would be okay to drink blood?

A yes or no answer would be great.

peace

[eternal]

gertzadik said:

I'll need some time to reread the post & I will respodn in detail ...

In the mean time I have this question.

If all foods are clean, it would be okay to drink blood?

A yes or no answer would be great.

peace

Blood is food? Is it ok to eat babies? lol.

There are specific injunctions even in the NT about blood, most highlighted in the Jerusalem council in Acts. On the other hand, there are similar discussions making the eating of "unclean foods" acceptable, ie pork.

[OrthodoX]

gertzadik said:

I'll need some time to reread the post & I will respodn in detail ...

In the mean time I have this question.

If all foods are clean, it would be okay to drink blood?

A yes or no answer would be great.

peace

sure....I love my steak rare! lol

This is really no arguement for your position though. Whether or not I am permitted to drink blood, which the NT says is a no no, as Eternal said, has nothing to do with whether the dietary laws of the OT are lifted. The NT is clear...eat whatever you want! As long as your conscience is not violated (I Cor.10).

Shalom-

DoX

[gertzadik]

So let's review ...

Lev 11

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them ...

Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof ...

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.

We should not eat pork because it specifically says this animal is unclean. Word ...

Mark 7

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And unwashen, hands, they found fault. when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. ...

There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

LOOK clearly defile is defined as eating things with unwashed hands. This is so incredible simple, please, do not miss this.

Y'shua is speaking in context of what will defile you. He states here (AND ONLY STATES HERE) that defilement does not come by eating without washing the hands ritually. This says NOTHING about SWINE.

How can you possible make this into a proof text to eat swine when swine is not even mentioned?

Act 10

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth ...

Rise, Peter; kill, and eat ...

Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean ...

Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate ...

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee ...

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him ...

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Clearly, Peter thought of Gentiles as unclean. The Father in a vision (which has metaphors and allusions) shows Peter was is truely unclean and what is not.

IF this was a proof-text to eat swine, the Scriptures would say

Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that I can now eat swine.

But NO. It says ...

Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him ..

This is the interpretation of the vision. Nowhere does it say that it is now okay to eat swine. The Scriptures do not support it. They only say this ...

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.

Show me where I have misinterpreted.

peace

[eternal]

Mark's parenthetical comment troubles your interpretation, as does Paul's apparent interpretation of these events, as he relays this apparent understanding in his teaching found in Romans 14.

[gertzadik]

Show me a specfic scripture where it says its all good to eat swine.

You cannot possibly use any of the above three since they clearly do not speak of eating anything you want. The language is specific & explicit--

peace