Could Jesus sin?

[the answer]

This came up our bible study tonight.

Was it possible for Jesus to sin, while he was on earth?

Some were saying "he was human, and he was tempted" so therefore he must have been able to sin.

What ya think?

choz

[kobe]

lol, cool question, i forgot what the popular answers are.

1. the Bible DOES say Jesus was tempted, so that sounds like grounds for Him to be able to sin, but

2. I dont think Jesus had the sinful nature thing going on since he was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

you know what though, when the Bible does mention Jesus being tempted in every way, it makes a heavy emphasis on "yet He was without sin", as if it were a great accomplishment, as if it were possible for Him to sin.

then again, He was GOD in the flesh! how can GOD sin? lol. cool question. i dunno! :-P

[DoGMaTiX]

kobe said:

lol, cool question, i forgot what the popular answers are.

1. the Bible DOES say Jesus was tempted, so that sounds like grounds for Him to be able to sin, but

2. I dont think Jesus had the sinful nature thing going on since he was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

you know what though, when the Bible does mention Jesus being tempted in every way, it makes a heavy emphasis on "yet He was without sin", as if it were a great accomplishment, as if it were possible for Him to sin.

then again, He was GOD in the flesh! how can GOD sin? lol. cool question. i dunno! :-P

AMEN!! Kobe, nice post

[eternal]

It is an intresting question. A real old one too!

You know, adam didn't have "the sinful nature thing going on" either, but was tempted and able to fall into sin.

I think I would lean to the side that He was able to because it was His conquering of SIN and DEATH that changes humanity to what God has destined. He conquered sin by never giving into it, never accepting its lies and promises, and remaining faithful to God.

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

This would really be a farce if it was impossible for Him to sin. This could infact be the greatness of the incarnation, that God became human, truly human, "the form of a slave "(ie Phil. 2)...the same form that adam took through disobedience and puffing Himself up, Jesus took on through obedience and humility (again, Phil. 2), and in coming truly human He is able to conquer the issues that plague humanity. He is able to reaffirm our dominion, and not be ruled over but to rule. And this takes place "in Christ," and as Christians we are "in Christ" and no longer "in adam."

If He was unable to sin, is this still really all as true? Or was it just a dog and pony show, some hoops to go through, but really had no affect?

[kobe]

lol, i dunno if i should mention the W word here, but eternal, you sure sound like a WOF-er! amen to ur post! not because you sound like a denom, but because you spit some true wisdom. God bless

[DoGMaTiX]

eternal said:

It is an intresting question. A real old one too!

You know, adam didn't have "the sinful nature thing going on" either, but was tempted and able to fall into sin.

I think I would lean to the side that He was able to because it was His conquering of SIN and DEATH that changes humanity to what God has destined. He conquered sin by never giving into it, never accepting its lies and promises, and remaining faithful to God.

Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

This would really be a farce if it was impossible for Him to sin. This could infact be the greatness of the incarnation, that God became human, truly human, "the form of a slave "(ie Phil. 2)...the same form that adam took through disobedience and puffing Himself up, Jesus took on through obedience and humility (again, Phil. 2), and in coming truly human He is able to conquer the issues that plague humanity. He is able to reaffirm our dominion, and not be ruled over but to rule. And this takes place "in Christ," and as Christians we are "in Christ" and no longer "in adam."

If He was unable to sin, is this still really all as true? Or was it just a dog and pony show, some hoops to go through, but really had no affect?

hmmmmm, good points, I'm going to chew on that for a minute. good post

[the answer]

What do u think of my argument.....

1. God cannot sin
2. Jesus was God

Therfore Jesus could not sin

Also, I think temptation can be 2 things.

1) Tempted - To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) Tempted - To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such act to such a degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

Did Jesus have a sinful nature? No, so what would cause him to be attacted to sin? I know Adam did not either, however he was not "the God man"

So to say Jesus was tempted, to me, does not imply that he had something "in him" that would cause Him to want to sin. I think the temptations were just PRESENTED to him.

This is a tough issue...My dad is a former seminary proffesor and we got into it over this...good stuff

[eternal]

Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

What you have to consider in your list is that Jesus was also human

And Jesus' temptation as interpreted in Hebrews does not allow that His temptation were merely ridiculous proposals that were offered that did not appeal to Jesus in the slightest. You can say that God doesn't have stress or fear, yet Jesus sweated blood in the garden do to His.

Jesus' humanity is something so beautiful to me, but it seems like a lot of Christians nowadays are afraid of it, and would rather wipe it away in fear of its infringment upon His divinity. The mystery is being wiped away in the name of dogmatic systematics. IMO that is.

The thing that really grabs me is how Jesus changes human nature through His obedience. How can this be if He never really had it in the first place?

peace.

[the answer]

eternal said:

Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

What you have to consider in your list is that Jesus was also human

And Jesus' temptation as interpreted in Hebrews does not allow that His temptation were merely ridiculous proposals that were offered that did not appeal to Jesus in the slightest. You can say that God doesn't have stress or fear, yet Jesus sweated blood in the garden do to His.

Jesus' humanity is something so beautiful to me, but it seems like a lot of Christians nowadays are afraid of it, and would rather wipe it away in fear of its infringment upon His divinity. The mystery is being wiped away in the name of dogmatic systematics. IMO that is.

The thing that really grabs me is how Jesus changes human nature through His obedience. How can this be if He never really had it in the first place?

peace.

So then u believe Jesus was born into sin?

Rememeber too that Jesus was not just a human, he was the God- man. To put Him in the same category as u and me, I think is a mistake.

Jesus was born sinless, right? Maybe u don't agree with that, so i'll let ya respond.

I'm not convinced the Hebrews passage shows that Jesus had a desire within him to sin. Can u flesh that out a bit?

[kobe]

Answer, i had this same discussion like 2 years ago, lol, on Dasouth and somewhere else.

and one of the questions i had that goes against what you're saying is, how can you call it "temptation" if its not "tempting"? thats like the definition of the word. if u aint "tempted" to it, it aint temptation.

[eternal]

admin said:

So then u believe Jesus was born into sin?

I'd be intrested in learning how you came to that conclussion.

Rememeber too that Jesus was not just a human, he was the God- man. To put Him in the same category as u and me, I think is a mistake.

I understand. I was hoping to remind you to not forget He became a man. You had a two step conclussion process:

1. God cannot sin
2. Jesus was God

Therfore Jesus could not sin

I was showing you that this process is flawed because it neglects a highly important feature to our Christology.

Jesus was born sinless, right? Maybe u don't agree with that, so i'll let ya respond.

So you believe Jesus was a cross dresser right? Maybe you don't agree with that, so I'll let ya respond.

I'm not convinced the Hebrews passage shows that Jesus had a desire within him to sin. Can u flesh that out a bit?

Temptations pry on the desires of our heart. Look at the temptations recorded in the scriptures. The devil is said to appeal to Jesus' mission to rule...only to do it through an impropper means, or an "easier" means. The temptations also are to "test God" which could be to confirm Jesus' mission, which He is embarking upon directly after His baptism. Such a miraculous rescue could confirm that God is indeed leading Him in this direction, but Jesus ultimately chose to believe and move in faith and not require a test to see if God's word was true.

Point being, that the temptations show a resonation with something within Him. The garden account is significant as I mentioned, as we see Him pleading and SWEATING BLOOD showing the tension within Him, but ultimately His victory.

The Hebrews passage though says that He can "sympathize with our weakness." Is this true if His temptations were merely unappealing proposals? If someone tempts me with some cocaine, it will do nothing to me, period. I'll call them crazy and there is nothing within me that will "be tempted." The drug dealer would be doing the tempting, but I would not be tempted.

This is what it looks like you suggest for Jesus, people TEMPTED Jesus, but He was never tempted. But how can He "sympathize with our weakness?" The bible says that because He does "sympathize with our weakness," and "was tempted with all things as we are"..."YET WITHOUT SIN."

That means He overcame the struggle, the same struggle we wrestle with, and He shows we can have victory. If Jesus was impossible to be tempted or sin, then what victory do we have? He is not "as we are" nor does He give us hope. Its like providing a bird and saying that we can now fly too. That is incorrect because we are not birds. The same would be true if Jesus came, impossible to sin, impossible to be tempted, and yet we are told we can overcome like Him.

peace.

[ReGeNeRATE]

admin said:

What do u think of my argument.....

1. God cannot sin
2. Jesus was God

Therfore Jesus could not sin

Also, I think temptation can be 2 things.

1) Tempted - To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) Tempted - To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such act to such a degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

Did Jesus have a sinful nature? No, so what would cause him to be attacted to sin? I know Adam did not either, however he was not "the God man"

So to say Jesus was tempted, to me, does not imply that he had something "in him" that would cause Him to want to sin. I think the temptations were just PRESENTED to him.

This is a tough issue...My dad is a former seminary proffesor and we got into it over this...good stuff

Great points as well Answer, thanx for reminding us of the fact that Christ was NOT born totally depraved that has alot to do with his sinlessness, coo.

Was Jesus tempted to sin? Yes.

Could Jesus have sinned? NO because He did not have a sinful nature, systematics folks.

sola agape

[eternal]

regenerate said:

Could Jesus have sinned? NO because He did not have a sinful nature, systematics folks.

sola agape

Welcome.

Question though...

If that is a true systematic, how do you explain Adam?

[the answer]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I believe Christ was Impeccable. I think this was demonstrated in the fact that he did not sin.

To say that temptation is not real just because u did not give into it doesn't make sense. have u ever been tempted to do something, but u didn't do it? I have. Does that mean the temptation wasn't real? No, it just means I didn't give into it.

When I look at Adam I see a man who gave into the temptation. Christ didn't.

This will also bring up questions about us in eternity. Will we be able to sin there? if not, why?

[eternal]

admin said:

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I believe Christ was Impeccable. I think this was demonstrated in the fact that he did not sin.

To say that temptation is not real just because u did not give into it doesn't make sense. have u ever been tempted to do something, but u didn't do it? I have. Does that mean the temptation wasn't real? No, it just means I didn't give into it.

When I look at Adam I see a man who gave into the temptation. Christ didn't.

This will also bring up questions about us in eternity. Will we be able to sin there? if not, why?

Who said you have to "give into" temptation in order for it to be real?

[the answer]

It seems to me like u imply that when u say IF it was impossible for Jesus to sin ( give into temptation) then the tempations were not real. " just a dog and pony show, some hoops to go through, but really had no affect"

did i miss it?

[eternal]

admin said:

It seems to me like u imply that when u say IF it was impossible for Jesus to sin ( give into temptation) then the tempations were not real. " just a dog and pony show, some hoops to go through, but really had no affect"

did i miss it?

The potential to, and actually doing it are two differnt things.

I am able to go over to your house and set it on fire. But I promise I will not do it.

Just because someone has the capacity to do something, doesn't mean they will or have to.

[ReGeNeRATE]

admin said:

To say that temptation is not real just because u did not give into it doesn't make sense. have u ever been tempted to do something, but u didn't do it? I have. Does that mean the temptation wasn't real? No, it just means I didn't give into it.

I see your point. Christ was tempted because the devil tempted Him but does not imply that He had the ability to sin it just means that the devil in his ignorance tried to make Jesus fall (whata moron).

This will also bring up questions about us in eternity. Will we be able to sin there? if not, why?

Thats actually an interesting question but I strongly believe that is dealt with when we recieve our glorified bodies that will be conformed to Christ body sinless and without blemish, so no we will not sin in eternity. I actually know a "christian" sect that believes that we cannot be sure if we will sin in eternity or not because Christ already came back defeated death and sin ushering in the New Heavens and New Earth the Church being heaven but we still sin even being NOW in heaven, so if sin was conquered but still exists then it is possible that we will sin even when we physically die and our souls make that transition into eternity, they redefine words to make their views understandable BUT thats another subject.

sola agape

[ReGeNeRATE]

eternal said:

Welcome.

Question though...

If that is a true systematic, how do you explain Adam?

Well, I echo answer's statement that Adam gave into temptation, but I would add that the reason why Adam is completely different in this is based upon the fact that Adam was created only 100% man he had no divinity to him other than bearing God's image. Jesus was fully man but also FULLY God which made him incapable of sin for God does not sin.

Sure Adam was created perfect but with a free will that gave him the "posse peccari and posse non peccari" which is the Latin phrase Augustine uses to describe man in his original state which means that Adam had the ABILITY TO SIN AND THE ABILITY NOT TO SIN but was tempted and used his ability to sin and cursed all of humanity and the universe.

We find these truths in the scriptures which systematic theology explains in more detail.

So Adam was tempted and had the ability to sin but Christ was tempted and not having the ability to sin because of His divinity, it gets pretty deep when discussing Jesus' two natures I personally think its a mystery that we will never know until eternity.

Also Jesus was NOT born in sin therefore not being totally depraved, I think that is a strong case for our position unless of course one take the stance that Christ was born in sin and Totally depraved or even partially depraved that would make Jesus a sinner therefore Jesus would HAVE TO sin because no sinner can be perfect in the sight of a Holy God. The reason why I say this is because we have to remember that....

A person doesn't BECOME a sinner when he sins but sins BECAUSE he is a sinner and if Christ is born a sinner then He MUST sin and if He must sin thats means He did sin therefore nullifying the atonement which of course we do not believe, again I love systematics!


Sola Agape

[the answer]

regenerate said:

eternal said:

Welcome.

Question though...

If that is a true systematic, how do you explain Adam?

Well, I echo answer's statement that Adam gave into temptation, but I would add that the reason why Adam is completely different in this is based upon the fact that Adam was created only 100% man he had no divinity to him other than bearing God's image. Jesus was fully man but also FULLY God which made him incapable of sin for God does not sin.

Sure Adam was created perfect but with a free will that gave him the "posse peccari and posse non peccari" which is the Latin phrase Augustine uses to describe man in his original state which means that Adam had the ABILITY TO SIN AND THE ABILITY NOT TO SIN but was tempted and used his ability to sin and cursed all of humanity and the universe.

We find these truths in the scriptures which systematic theology explains in more detail.

So Adam was tempted and had the ability to sin but Christ was tempted and not having the ability to sin because of His divinity, it gets pretty deep when discussing Jesus' two natures I personally think its a mystery that we will never know until eternity.

Also Jesus was NOT born in sin therefore not being totally depraved, I think that is a strong case for our position unless of course one take the stance that Christ was born in sin and Totally depraved or even partially depraved that would make Jesus a sinner therefore Jesus would HAVE TO sin because no sinner can be perfect in the sight of a Holy God. The reason why I say this is because we have to remember that....

A person doesn't BECOME a sinner when he sins but sins BECAUSE he is a sinner and if Christ is born a sinner then He MUST sin and if He must sin thats means He did sin therefore nullifying the atonement which of course we do not believe, again I love systematics!


Sola Agape

Excellent