Is God gonna annihilate me?

[the answer]

I came across this passage again

Matt 25:46 46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Is it truly punishment if someone is not experiencing it?

My dad had a professor who turned to a annihilationist, I was reading some of his work, but was not convinced that God will eradicate me from existance.

Any thoughts?

[eternal]

From what I know of you answer, you are among those counted for eternal life, not destruction.

[the answer]

LOL ;D

ok dirtbag ...lol

Will God annihlate anyone based on this passage?

[eternal]

admin said:

LOL ;D

ok dirtbag ...lol

Will God annihlate anyone based on this passage?

Every exegete knows that it is essential to learn to ask the right question.

Now, as for the doctrine of annhialationism, you have been given many times quite an extensive library of passages to help you in interpreting this passage. For now I will remind you that the bible shares many punishments God gives to His people and creation throughout the years. Many were temporal or for a season. Hell however, is eternal, without reprieve. Hell is eternal punishment.

peace.

[eternal]

You know answer, another thought on top of the passages I offered in the other thread

Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

eccl. 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. "

Psalm 104:29-30 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Psalm 146:3-4 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

is that Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

So, if hell is eternal conscience torment, do they too know "in full." If so, then they are full of the glory of God, corretc? It would appear that only through REAL DEATH will there ONLY be "in full" in existence. Otherwise the people in heaven will know "in full" while those suffering in hell continue "in part."

Is that biblical?

[the answer]

I don't get you??

What are they "knowing"?

Why are u saying they are "full of the glory of God?"

Can u expand on that? Kinda confused.

[eternal]

What do you think it means to "know in full?"

What does that entail?

[the answer]

To Know Christ I'd say..I could be wrong...haven't studied it, but my hunch is we will know Christ in full....maybe even info about earth and doctrine. Haven't thought much about that.

I still don't see how that makes "aism" true?

[eternal]

admin said:

To Know Christ I'd say..I could be wrong...haven't studied it, but my hunch is we will know Christ in full....maybe even info about earth and doctrine. Haven't thought much about that.

I still don't see how that makes "aism" true?

Man you funny. You say that alot. "I don't see how that makes annhialationism true." Like you will only look at one verse or issue at a time, and never step back for a second and see the entire picture. If you put together all those verses where you say, "I still don't see how that makes it true," and check the whole picture, maybe then you will see how each fabric contributes to the entire blanket, instead of saying, "I still don't see how that piece of thread is going to keep me warm at night."

But for me, when I think of "know God in full" it seems to bring the idea (in view of the totality of scripture on this concept) that there will be an entire harmony within our self, in devotion to God, honor to God, love of God. That God will be our entire attention and being. That we will have no more tension, but will be all about God. There will be no more disension within our selves, but be all about God. Knowing God in part, means that we can focus on things that are not the full glory of God. That something other than the full glory of God can occupy us and our thoughts.

If this is true, or even near the truth, what about those who live for eternity (remember no bible passage ever says that the wicked will "live for eternity") in hell? Will they also know in full?

[the answer]

Man you funny. You say that alot. "I don't see how that makes annhialationism true." Like you will only look at one verse or issue at a time, and never step back for a second and see the entire picture. If you put together all those verses where you say, "I still don't see how that makes it true," and check the whole picture, maybe then you will see how each fabric contributes to the entire blanket, instead of saying, "I still don't see how that piece of thread is going to keep me warm at night."

I have peeped your "blanket" and I find it unconvincing.

If this is true, or even near the truth, what about those who live for eternity (remember no bible passage ever says that the wicked will "live for eternity") in hell? Will they also know in full?

Your interpretation sounds like it could work!

Lets say they DO know in full? What follows from that?

You stress the word 'live' yet, the bible says they will be punished for eternity. You have to be existing to be punished.

Will Satan exist forever? he will also be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

[eternal]

admin said:

Your interpretation sounds like it could work!

Lets say they DO know in full? What follows from that?

So people in hell, suffering in sin and wallow, are full of this same intimacy of knowledge? Isn't the pain of it all antithetical to this fullness? Isn't this existence in seperation from God antithetical to God? Won't the whole creation be full of God's glory? What does this do to the doctrine of a conscience eternal suffering hell?

admin said:

You stress the word 'live' yet, the bible says they will be punished for eternity. You have to be existing to be punished.

Well, that wasn't original. You already know the answer. You may not like the answer, but it is a sad commentary when your entire position hangs upon the hope of meaning of one passage. You do the same thing with "destroy" and "destruction" trying to force it to mean "eternal life that is bad." And of course, the center of the other thread, "death" not really meaning what the bible says it means, but really "eternal life that is really bad," even though there isn't one passage that says that...but of course is why you keep bringing this one up, even though it has been rationaly dealt with. Because it comes the closest for you to meaning eternal bad life. But let me ask you, is it one punishment, or many punishments?

Will Satan exist forever? he will also be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

The bible says they are THE ONLY ONES who will be "tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) This is the ONLY passage that states this, and it is clear that it is ONLY the devil, beast, and false prophet reside. They are the only ones.

peace.

[the answer]

My whole view is not based on 1 passage. It's based on many. Don't forget u are in the minority here. The majority of christians believe in the wicked suffering for an eternity. This doesn't mean that we are right, however this isn't as clear as u are making it out to be. The issue also isn't about amount of education. Most theology profs don't hold to your view and are fimiliar with the arguments people bring. This is not as cut and dry as u are making it out to be, if it were- there would be more "anists"

So people in hell, suffering in sin and wallow, are full of this same intimacy of knowledge? Isn't the pain of it all antithetical to this fullness? Isn't this existence in seperation from God antithetical to God? Won't the whole creation be full of God's glory? What does this do to the doctrine of a conscience eternal suffering hell?

I don't see a conflict here. They can know the love, purity, holiness of God, and still be punished for offending this God.

You do the same thing with "destroy" and "destruction" trying to force it to mean "eternal life that is bad." And of course, the center of the other thread, "death" not really meaning what the bible says it means, but really "eternal life that is really bad," even though there isn't one passage that says that...but of course is why you keep bringing this one up, even though it has been rationaly dealt with. Because it comes the closest for you to meaning eternal bad life. But let me ask you, is it one punishment, or many punishments?

You think we can punish things that doen't exist. That makes no sense to me. How do u punish something that doesn't exist? This is not punishment.

In the passages u give the writters are simply stating truth.

Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

They were dead. Punished, destroyed. YET they were still in existance. The rich man died, yet he was in a place of torment- still existing. isaiah is simply stating the truth. The dead don't live, but they do exist

Psalm 104:29-30 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Psalm 146:3-4 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish

None of these passages show that when the wicked die, they cease to exist.

eccl. 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. "

ok? What u sayin here? if the spirit comes back to God, isn't it still in existance?

[eternal]

admin said:

My whole view is not based on 1 passage. It's based on many. Don't forget u are in the minority here. The majority of christians believe in the wicked suffering for an eternity. This doesn't mean that we are right, however this isn't as clear as u are making it out to be. The issue also isn't about amount of education. Most theology profs don't hold to your view and are fimiliar with the arguments people bring. This is not as cut and dry as u are making it out to be, if it were- there would be more "anists"

First, I never made any appeal to education at all. I am unsure why you posit that as a response to something I said.

Secondly, I recongnize that my position is the minority one. With that said, I can not for the life of my figure out WHY that is so, exegeticly. To me this issue is so clean cut and clear. The only way you and other teachers, IMO, can teach as you do is by adding new meanings to settled words. This issue seems so obvious to me. It is not like Arminian/Calvinist debates, or the debates on eschatalogy where there is an understandable confussion and disagreement. To me, this matter of annhialationism is just so obvious when taking the bible for only what it says. I know tradition is a strong determenant, as well as your oft cited objection that it is not "enough punishment" and they need to suffer more than what God says. So I do get perplexed why it is not accepted more, but I do understand the power of tradition in our lives.

You think we can punish things that doen't exist. That makes no sense to me. How do u punish something that doesn't exist? This is not punishment.

And you think you can continue to offer this up without me realizing I have set you staight numerous times to the propper reading (if not at BEAR MINIMUM a reasonable one).

Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

They were dead. Punished, destroyed. YET they were still in existance. The rich man died, yet he was in a place of torment- still existing. isaiah is simply stating the truth. The dead don't live, but they do exist

All rememberance of them will be wiped out. Their spirits do not rise. You create a distinction between death and existence, and make the claim that the wicked do have eternal existence, but are unable to stake that on any passage with clarity. Instead, the passage says that God has punished, and that punishment is destruction.

Psalm 104:29-30 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Psalm 146:3-4 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish

None of these passages show that when the wicked die, they cease to exist.

Humans are dust animated by God's Spirit giving us life. Take that spirit away, and we return to the dust from where we were collected...ashes to ashes, dust to dust. People "expire" and the Spirit returns to God...and the person that was constituted by that spirit and flesh has their thoughts "perish in that very day." You claim that their thoughts continue on for eternity.

eccl. 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. "

ok? What u sayin here? if the spirit comes back to God, isn't it still in existance?

The same as above.

All of these are very convincing, but when put in light of more explicit teaching that the wages of sin is DEATH but the gift of Christ is ETERNAL LIFE and so forth, the wholee picture becomes clear. The contrast here is DEATH and ETERNAL LIFE.

Just like Jesus said, you will live even if you die. Or that whosoever believes will not PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE. Again the contrast is between two opposites, explained by Jn. 11:25. Those opposites is death, the end of life, or the reward in Christ that there will be no end to life at all.

Very clear.

John 5:24 says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "

Again, notice the contrast. The punishment is death. That is the ultimate end of humanity because of sin. But our relationship in Christ "passes" us "out of death into life."

John 10:28 says, "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish." Again, perishing is the end of humanity. It is our wage, what we have coming to us. But in Christ we have been given ETERNAL LIFE.

The contrast is very important to understanding this. Jesus CONSISTENTLY makes the contast between DYING and ETERNAL LIFE. Those two images are very central to His teaching on this matter.

Mt. 7:13-14 says, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." The same contrast is painted once again. Destruction is one image, and the opposite of that is (eternal) "life."

See. This is the key to your other post. Physical death is a ramification of sin. It is the ultimate ramification. Life in Christ "passes" us "out of death" and "into life." We will live even if we die. Those who do not have Christ, will NOT "live even if you die" They will just die. Even though we have earned death, God has graciously given us life.

What is your response to my comment...

The bible says they are THE ONLY ONES who will be "tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) This is the ONLY passage that states this, and it is clear that it is ONLY the devil, beast, and false prophet reside. They are the only ones.

[eternal]

Any thoughts?

[the answer]

Secondly, I recongnize that my position is the minority one. With that said, I can not for the life of my figure out WHY that is so, exegeticly. To me this issue is so clean cut and clear. The only way you and other teachers, IMO, can teach as you do is by adding new meanings to settled words. This issue seems so obvious to me. It is not like Arminian/Calvinist debates, or the debates on eschatalogy where there is an understandable confussion and disagreement. To me, this matter of annhialationism is just so obvious when taking the bible for only what it says. I know tradition is a strong determenant, as well as your oft cited objection that it is not "enough punishment" and they need to suffer more than what God says. So I do get perplexed why it is not accepted more, but I do understand the power of tradition in our lives.

My point in bringing this out was just to show that this is more then tradition. This is what I think the text itself teaches.

"Not enough punishment", my view is that yours isn't a punishment at all.

Bible scholar John Gerstner tells us that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it."

The explanation u give that the ann is the punishment, does not fly.

All rememberance of them will be wiped out. Their spirits do not rise. You create a distinction between death and existence, and make the claim that the wicked do have eternal existence, but are unable to stake that on any passage with clarity. Instead, the passage says that God has punished, and that punishment is destruction.

My grandma died last year. Does she still exist? Yes. She is present with the Lord. The second death is the lake of fire, stated in revelation. No where do we see death as going into non existance, rather we pass on to another type of existance. The second "death" is separation from God.

Just like Jesus said, you will live even if you die. Or that whosoever believes will not PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE. Again the contrast is between two opposites, explained by Jn. 11:25. Those opposites is death, the end of life, or the reward in Christ that there will be no end to life at all.

Very clear.

John 5:24 says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "

Again, notice the contrast. The punishment is death. That is the ultimate end of humanity because of sin. But our relationship in Christ "passes" us "out of death into life."

John 10:28 says, "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish." Again, perishing is the end of humanity. It is our wage, what we have coming to us. But in Christ we have been given ETERNAL LIFE.

The contrast is very important to understanding this. Jesus CONSISTENTLY makes the contast between DYING and ETERNAL LIFE. Those two images are very central to His teaching on this matter.

Mt. 7:13-14 says, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." The same contrast is painted once again. Destruction is one image, and the opposite of that is (eternal) "life."

See. This is the key to your other post. Physical death is a ramification of sin. It is the ultimate ramification. Life in Christ "passes" us "out of death" and "into life." We will live even if we die. Those who do not have Christ, will NOT "live even if you die" They will just die. Even though we have earned death, God has graciously given us life.

But we still die. Which was the point of Nebs post. Did jesus pay for physical death? Well, believers still die physically. You view doesn't escape his question

God says Hell is a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. by whom? The rich man was "in torment" in the flame. He was "dead" yet he was still experiencing pain, and he didn't want his brothers to come to the same place.

As to your last point, it isn't true.

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev 14:9-11

[eternal]

admin said:

"Not enough punishment", my view is that yours isn't a punishment at all.

Bible scholar John Gerstner tells us that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it."

Again you are defining on your own terms. Destruction itself is the punishment. So you can quote Bush for that matter, it doesn't matter because the punishment is the destruction which is forever. There is ONE punishment, not countless punishments...

The explanation u give that the ann is the punishment, does not fly.

You may not agree, but it is more than reasonable and substantiated by the text. So then when you put a REASONABLE reading in the bag with an OVERWHELMING exhaustion of passages presenting the doctrine such as the list I gave in my last response, one must say the reasonable is quickly looking like "the right one." Your interpretation of that "ambiguous" (if one wants to call it that) verse makes no sense in light of the MAJORITY of the passages includding the ones I cited.

Calvinists love to say interpret the unclear in light of the clear. You are interpreting the clear in light of your version of the unclear.

My grandma died last year. Does she still exist? Yes. She is present with the Lord. The second death is the lake of fire, stated in revelation. No where do we see death as going into non existance, rather we pass on to another type of existance. The second "death" is separation from God.

I know...

Destruction/Destroy = live forever
Perish = live forever
Die/Death = live forever

But we still die. Which was the point of Nebs post. Did jesus pay for physical death? Well, believers still die physically. You view doesn't escape his question

Wow, you skipped over every passage I provided. But I won't skip over yours. I promise. Will our particles and dust be eliminated? Yes. The bible teaches this clearly. But we don't die. We live forever. John 11:25, remember.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

Yet you believe that those who don't believe in Jesus, won't die, in the face of Jesus' teaching here. Jesus says we will all die, but those who believe in Him will not. Our flesh may return to the dust, just as the bible says many times, but WE will never die. "God is the God of the living," remember?

God says Hell is a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. by whom? The rich man was "in torment" in the flame. He was "dead" yet he was still experiencing pain, and he didn't want his brothers to come to the same place.

#1 I have spoken on the Lazarous parable many times. And I think you already understand the purposes and intent of the parable, articulating role reversals of the powerful and the powerless, and do not base your doctrine on a literalness of this passage, right?

As for weeping and gnashing of teeth... Herzog writes, "thus, taken together, weeping and gnashing of teeth accompany those moments that tear liefe apart and change it forever. No doubt, peasants gnahsed their teeth when they lost their family plots or saw their substinence threatened by new tributes and extractions, and after they became day laborers, inadequately clothed and poorly fed, thei teeth chattered in the cold." This is in his commentary on the parable of the talents.

Jesus' use of it in relationship with the judgment and casting into the "outer darkness" articulates the complete change they will experience from their haughty position to destruction.

As to your last point, it isn't true.

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev 14:9-11

Yes, it was true, Rev. 20:10 says something you apparently have difficulty with (as do all the passages you skipped over in your response).

But for ch. 14...only the smoke is said to be eternal...symbolizing of course the destruction that has occured. Pretty clear imagery. Remember what is said of Babylon's destruction...

"Revelation 19:3 - And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Revelation 18:21 - And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Notice the smoke imagery as eternal is being used to describe the absolute destruction that has taken place. It is a testimony so to speak of God's action, not a symbol that it still exists but in torment.

Notice in Jeremiah too, it is said there is no quenching their either

Jeremiah 17:27 "But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched.""'

The "day and night" is a refference to the period of the tribulation.

Lastly, look at this...

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9--DESTRUCTION, as the passage says, also this destruction is away from the presence of God, which God is everywhere. Also, they are away from the glory of His power, which too is everywhere...which creation itself bears according to Romans. Thus they have been destroyed period. No more existence.

Notice that 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the same wicked people are destroyed away from the presence of the LORD. Thus this passage (Rev. 14) can not be read in the manner that is suggested by your post.

Now please at least comment commicaly on the clear cut passages describing end of life/eternal life.

peace.

[the answer]

Before I go on...define LIFE

[eternal]

I feel that question is a set up for something. Usually that type of stuff becomes its own debate, and all the progress made prior to it is left in the background. That won't happen, will it answer?

This is not a hard deffinition, but rather a refflective one...

Life is Jesus Christ. All life is contingent on Him. Anything not God is created, and GIVEN life, and its very being is hinged on God. Nothing exists outside of the realm of God...nothing exists on its own...all things were created through Him and hold together in Him.

All things refflect God in some way, and creation increases in this likeness depending on what is being looked at. Life is one of these things that is much more refflective of God, IMO, than those that do not have life, ie a rock. And then when looking at life...a cell, a plant, a dog, a person...we see different nuances being examined. A dog has consciousness, but is not of the same sort as a person. Only human beings is it said to be created in the image of God.

Humans life is said to be constituted by God's spirit and the dust of the ground. The dust of the ground was given life by the breath of God.

So life exists on its own, when looking at God. But all things that have come out of God, are contingent upon this God's holding it together. When God no longer holds you together, you no longer have life.

I'm sure there is more that can be said, but I have prolly confussed you enough already, and I as I already said, I am weary of this derailing the passages I have asked you to respond to.

peace.

[the answer]

I'm going to church, but I'll write somethin when I get back

[eternal]

admin said:

I'm going to church, but I'll write somethin when I get back

Ok. I hope you are having a good time at church.