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Post by eternal on Aug 2, 2006 17:59:52 GMT -5
same ol' same ol'. People won't read the resources you give them.... they'd rather make up their own version of the nature of man, a parody of your argument and then refute that.....
Hopefully after Black Calvinist gets Reformed Theology out of his ear, he'll actually get some Biblical doctrine under his fingertips.
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Post by cderolic on Aug 5, 2006 21:24:25 GMT -5
E, check ya email!
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Post by eternal on Aug 7, 2006 11:55:40 GMT -5
I hope you got a chance to review my response, answer?
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Post by the answer on Aug 7, 2006 12:06:30 GMT -5
yeah..ive been gone, just got back this morning.
I will respond as soon as I settle down.
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Post by eternal on Aug 11, 2006 11:07:05 GMT -5
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Post by the answer on Aug 13, 2006 0:21:41 GMT -5
HEy..I will get on this monday..sorry for the long wait
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Post by the answer on Aug 18, 2006 17:19:02 GMT -5
woah my goodness... Thanks for the patience...( Or maybe not, maybe u are planning I assassination as we speak) I have been sooo busy, i don't wanna give a half thought response ...tho I could. I will try to get somethin down soon!
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Post by eternal on Aug 21, 2006 19:37:27 GMT -5
Nah Im being patient At least with you I know I don't have to worry about you ignoring points in order to cover your need to be right, or attacking strawmen and blaming the whole ordeal on me when you don't have any sort of response. YOu are a stand up dude, and I know if you say you are going to get to it, you will. Just your interaction with the thread so far gives me confidence in this if nothing else. peace.
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Post by eternal on Aug 30, 2006 16:26:24 GMT -5
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Post by the answer on Aug 31, 2006 1:24:05 GMT -5
Hey there!
First off, thanks for being patient. I've been doing so much lately and I haven't had much time. I will try to do my best to respond the best I can and as quickly.
Thanks for the kind words. i try my best to stay open and teachable, and I strive to deal with what people say seriously.
So....
Is the breath of God distinct from God? How about the spirit of God?
As far as I can tell the term "breath of God" or "breath of life" simply means that it gives us life.
The same message is being communicated. While we possess God's spirit and breath, we are alive. But if it were to be recalled, we would die instantly, for only God lives. We are SHARING in His existence and glory. Without His sustaining (Col 1:17) presence that all things consist in, we would die and return to the dust in which we came from, and His spirit would return to God who gave it. In fact, that is exactly what Ecclesiastes 12:7 confirms: "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
Let me ask u...do those who are with God now have his spirit keeping them alive? Is the breath of God in us only on earth? We know there is existence after death..what makes us alive after death if we have returned to the dust and he has taken back his breath. ( Which is another way of saying 'they died')
As I have suggested to you before, I am attacking one aspect of Total Depravity. The notion that every aspect of man has been tainted by sin. I reject this on biblical grounds for the simple fact that God's breath and God's spirit is as much a part of man as anything else. I believe I have demonstrated this thoroughly in this thread.
I think to attack the point that "every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin' misses the intended force of the argument. Even if I were to grant that there was an aspect of humans that wasn't currupt, my conclusion would be the same. Our minds, will, emotions, flesh are tainted by sin..u agree? This is all that matters when we are dealing with eternal destiny. I don't see how your point, even if it where true, would change the fact that man is in total rebellion against God, due to his nature.
The point of Total Depravity is not prove how bad man is...but simply to show why he needs a savior. I don't know how else to take passages that say our minds are HOSTILE to God....that we CANNOT submit to God...that we are wicked...etc
I'll be sure to respond quicker to what u say..lol
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Post by eternal on Sept 5, 2006 10:31:24 GMT -5
As far as I can tell the term "breath of God" or "breath of life" simply means that it gives us life.
Why? Isn't it most natural to see it as possessive? "Breath OF God?" God BREATHED into his nostrils? So you believe it is just an expression denoting "life giving" and we do not literaly posess the breath of God in any meaningful sense? And that when the bible reports that it will in fact "return" to God upon our death, that too is just merely figurative of the death process? What do you base this on? To be honest, it seems more like an escape from dealing with what the text says. I may be wrong though. Please elaborate.
Let me ask u...do those who are with God now have his spirit keeping them alive? Is the breath of God in us only on earth? We know there is existence after death..what makes us alive after death if we have returned to the dust and he has taken back his breath. ( Which is another way of saying 'they died')
Those in Christ live forever, only those outside of Him die. How we exist "in heaven" is anybody's guess. Some people say we will have our same bodies. Others say physical bodies, others spiritual like God, who knows, or how it works out. All I know is what the bible spells out for us here. I am inclined to believe the bible remains consistent on this point, that we continue to have our being in Him, and that all things continue to consist in Him.
I think to attack the point that "every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin' misses the intended force of the argument. Even if I were to grant that there was an aspect of humans that wasn't currupt, my conclusion would be the same. Our minds, will, emotions, flesh are tainted by sin..u agree? This is all that matters when we are dealing with eternal destiny. I don't see how your point, even if it where true, would change the fact that man is in total rebellion against God, due to his nature.
The point of Total Depravity is not prove how bad man is...but simply to show why he needs a savior. I don't know how else to take passages that say our minds are HOSTILE to God....that we CANNOT submit to God...that we are wicked...etc
I disagree. How then would you differentiate the Orthodox position and that developed by Calvin, being "total depravity?" I agree we need a savior, but the doctrine of "total depravity" suggests a whole new element to what that salvation means and works than does the Orthodox view.
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Post by the answer on Sept 5, 2006 16:15:16 GMT -5
Why? Isn't it most natural to see it as possessive? "Breath OF God?" God BREATHED into his nostrils? So you believe it is just an expression denoting "life giving" and we do not literaly posess the breath of God in any meaningful sense?
16 “aOnly in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Dt 20:15)
11 aThey struck every person who was in it with the edge of the sword, 1utterly destroying them; there was no one left who breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire (Jos 11:11)
These 2 passages ( there are more) use the same word, and the plain meaning to me is that if u are breathing u are alive. If u are not breathing, u are dead.
It doesn't seem like a stretch to say the breath of God gives us life, or is a way of saying we have life.
Being alive in meaningful. I don't think that is a minor thing at all.
And that when the bible reports that it will in fact "return" to God upon our death, that too is just merely figurative of the death process?
Yes.
It seems to follow.
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Seems to be describing death. Has the Gen 2 ring to it. The dust and the giving of life. We go back to dust ( our bodies) The spirit returns to God.
Those in Christ live forever, only those outside of Him die. How we exist "in heaven" is anybody's guess. Some people say we will have our same bodies. Others say physical bodies, others spiritual like God, who knows, or how it works out. All I know is what the bible spells out for us here. I am inclined to believe the bible remains consistent on this point, that we continue to have our being in Him, and that all things continue to consist in Him.
We will live even tho we die...but thats another topic.
I asked the question because I want to know how we are alive in your view? It wasn't until he breathed into us, that we were alive. Thats why I think the breath of God is what keeps us living. It makes us living beings.
but the doctrine of "total depravity" suggests a whole new element to what that salvation means and works than does the Orthodox view.
How?
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Isn't this what total depravity teaches?
I dunno how else to comat this. The breath is what makes us alive. The breath of God has no bearing on how we make decisions, our will, emotions, anything.
It almost like asking is oxygen part of who we are? Is that tainted by sin? It seems like an out of place question.
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Post by eternal on Sept 5, 2006 16:46:06 GMT -5
16 “aOnly in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Dt 20:15)
11 aThey struck every person who was in it with the edge of the sword, 1utterly destroying them; there was no one left who breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire (Jos 11:11)
These 2 passages ( there are more) use the same word, and the plain meaning to me is that if u are breathing u are alive. If u are not breathing, u are dead.
It doesn't seem like a stretch to say the breath of God gives us life, or is a way of saying we have life.
Being alive in meaningful. I don't think that is a minor thing at all.
It uses the word "breath," not "breath of God/life" In these passages, the idea is that the breath belongs to those individuals it is speaking. SO it is when the possessor is God. I am not saying there is anything magical about the word "breath." I am not sure how you thought that. Rather simply put, the bible presents the idea that God "breathed" (however that works out) into mans nostril, and life began. The bible later confirms that the possession of this breath of God is not exclussive to adam, but is also true of every human since. Lastly, the bible testifies that when this breath is removed and "returns to God" then we die. In your estimation of this whole thing, how does a metaphor "return to God?"
It seems to follow.
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well, 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Seems to be describing death. Has the Gen 2 ring to it. The dust and the giving of life. We go back to dust ( our bodies) The spirit returns to God.
And the bible says that we are judged at that point. Yes. In your view, is the spirit borrowed? The spirit goes back to belonging to God, and then humanity either goes to be tormented in hell (I'm not sure what is tomrented, as the spirit and breath are back with God, and the body returns to the dust). HOw is it that the spirit "returns" to God? And even further, do you now agree that indeed God's spirit IS IN FACT in every human being?
We will live even tho we die...but thats another topic.
Technicaly speaking, yes. And those outside of Christ die when they die. However you and many others apparently believe that EVERYONE lives even though they die. I don't get it.
I asked the question because I want to know how we are alive in your view? It wasn't until he breathed into us, that we were alive. Thats why I think the breath of God is what keeps us living. It makes us living beings.
Yes I agree. This is what I have been saying. And this disagrees, as far as I can tell, with your argument thus far, that it is merely a metaphor or "figurative language." If the "breath of God is what keeps us living. It makes us living beings," then how can it merely be figurative language for us being alive at the same time? Either it is literal or it is not? Is God's presence/breath somehow a part of us or is it not? The bible says God's spirit and breath are a part of us. This is the key question. Is it literal or is it figurative? Is God literaly a part of us? Or is He not? If He is, then it makes sense how we even exist, and share in "life" as we have Him as a part of who we are. Before creation, only God was, only God existed. We share in that, is what I see the bible expressing.
And if the bible is in fact saying this (as is the clear statements of the biblical authors and to disagree with it requires much fancy footwork and dancing around) then how can we agree that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin? We can not.
but the doctrine of "total depravity" suggests a whole new element to what that salvation means and works than does the Orthodox view.
How?
Orthodoxy denies that man is unable to respond to God's grace. God's presence enables all humanity to respond to God's initiation. In fact, God's initation is His very presence, and the continual call and beckoning thereon. Total depravity denies this presence, consequent beckoning and capacity to respond. Orthodoxy teaches that we have the capacity to respond because we share in the very presence and existence of God who holds all things together, and we live, move, exist and have our being in Him. Total depravity teaches that we have no capacity, and really no role of our own in existence. We are mere puppets who experience what God demands we experience, be that ignorance and a vile life of murder, rape and hatred, or be it an awakening recognition of who God is. God zaps, and we go with the program. There is no response. There is no obedience. There is mere unadultrated compliance with no involvement of our own. God does everything. We are stick figures on his page of art.
This to me makes the entire bible a farce, all the commandments, all the calls to obedience, all the rebuking of failures and disobedience, even the atonement of Christ, everything is a farce as there is no abiblity to obey or disobey God, only the most absolutely passive compliance imaginable. We are dolls.
This is total depravity at work, and it slaps the doctrines of the bible in the face, not to mention logic. It denies taking seriously the calls of the prophets as well as Jesus to "return" and to be "faithful" and to "obey" and "believe." It denies the presence of God as breath and spirit in our lives. It is not orthodoxy. The fact that it is not orthodox is not what troubles me, as orthodoxy is always up for debate. What troubles me is that it twists and turns so much of scripture to fit a systematic that denies the very power of the gospel all together.
This is not to say that Calvinists are not Christian, you know me better than this. I deffend all of my Calvinist friends as faithful Christians, if in fact they are found and walk in Christ. Misguided and wrong, yes, but the bible says that Christ forgives us of all unrighteousness, which would include errors of doctirnal matters.
Isn't this what total depravity teaches?
I dunno how else to comat this. The breath is what makes us alive. The breath of God has no bearing on how we make decisions, our will, emotions, anything.
It almost like asking is oxygen part of who we are? Is that tainted by sin? It seems like an out of place question.
I disagree that it has no bearing on our decissions, etc. Paul says that the Gentiles who did not know the law, instinctively obeyed it. Why? That is the impact of the presence of God in our lives. As further articulated in my comments above.
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Post by the answer on Sept 12, 2006 17:16:32 GMT -5
I have a few moments let me throw out a few things..
Orthodoxy denies that man is unable to respond to God's grace. God's presence enables all humanity to respond to God's initiation. In fact, God's initation is His very presence, and the continual call and beckoning thereon. Total depravity denies this presence, consequent beckoning and capacity to respond. Orthodoxy teaches that we have the capacity to respond because we share in the very presence and existence of God who holds all things together, and we live, move, exist and have our being in Him. Total depravity teaches that we have no capacity, and really no role of our own in existence. We are mere puppets who experience what God demands we experience, be that ignorance and a vile life of murder, rape and hatred, or be it an awakening recognition of who God is. God zaps, and we go with the program. There is no response. There is no obedience. There is mere unadultrated compliance with no involvement of our own. God does everything. We are stick figures on his page of art.
This to me makes the entire bible a farce, all the commandments, all the calls to obedience, all the rebuking of failures and disobedience, even the atonement of Christ, everything is a farce as there is no abiblity to obey or disobey God, only the most absolutely passive compliance imaginable. We are dolls.
This is total depravity at work, and it slaps the doctrines of the bible in the face, not to mention logic. It denies taking seriously the calls of the prophets as well as Jesus to "return" and to be "faithful" and to "obey" and "believe." It denies the presence of God as breath and spirit in our lives. It is not orthodoxy. The fact that it is not orthodox is not what troubles me, as orthodoxy is always up for debate. What troubles me is that it twists and turns so much of scripture to fit a systematic that denies the very power of the gospel all together.
This is not to say that Calvinists are not Christian, you know me better than this. I deffend all of my Calvinist friends as faithful Christians, if in fact they are found and walk in Christ. Misguided and wrong, yes, but the bible says that Christ forgives us of all unrighteousness, which would include errors of doctirnal matters.
As always, these debates usually spin back into the same discussion over and over. But I have to ask: Why do some believe and others don't? If we are all in the same boat, what made me and u believe?
If the "breath of God is what keeps us living. It makes us living beings," then how can it merely be figurative language for us being alive at the same time? Either it is literal or it is not? Is God's presence/breath somehow a part of us or is it not?
Yes, it is a part of us- in that -we are alive because of it. However, it doesn't play into our rebellion. Maybe i need to go back and re read your other posts, but I don't remember u giving the purpose of God's breath/spirit. What does it do? How is my def affected by that fact?
Total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
This is the definition I have given over and over. THis statement is true, even if God's breath is part of us. True?
As a christian God is in me, yet i still sin.
I'll be back.....
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Post by eternal on Sept 13, 2006 9:00:32 GMT -5
As always, these debates usually spin back into the same discussion over and over. But I have to ask: Why do some believe and others don't? If we are all in the same boat, what made me and u believe?Short memory? www.itstheanswer.proboards46.com/index.cgi?board=discuss&action=display&thread=1141058250I found this link, but there is another one where we discuss it in more detail, the power of influence, and the role/responsibility of propper dominion. Do you remember where that convo was? Yes, it is a part of us- in that -we are alive because of it. However, it doesn't play into our rebellion. Maybe i need to go back and re read your other posts, but I don't remember u giving the purpose of God's breath/spirit. What does it do? How is my def affected by that fact?If it is a part of us, and it doesn't play a role in our rebellion, then you now affirm we are not "totaly depraved." Correct? And yes I have covered your second request extensively, and going back to read would be helpful. Total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
This is the definition I have given over and over. THis statement is true, even if God's breath is part of us. True?And the bible teaches that GOd's inate presence within us refutes this philisophical conceptualization of being. As a christian God is in me, yet i still sin. yup
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Post by 5pointer on Sept 22, 2006 20:11:59 GMT -5
Total Inability- well what about the prodigal son? He was dead, yet he could make the decision to rise and go to his father. Calvin says a man cannot respond, move, or anything such as that. People in Hell respond, move, and speak. People in Heaven respond, move, and speak. John 5:40 says that man will not come, not man cannot come. Explain this to me please.
What Calvin taught, and consequently Calvinism, is that man is unable to respond to the gospel proclamation outside of the work of the Holy Spirit.
John 5:40 is exactly the point. No one is willing to come to Christ. Scripyure does go further by stating That no one can come to Chris. John 6:44
Unconditional Election- Calvin says that some are born to life, while others are born to d**nation. This one is really hard to swallow. God throughout the bible sends invitations to come to Christ. The Lord called us to be fishers of men, but wouldn't that be a waste of time if some are d**ned with no way or hope of salvation? John 3:36 proves that men go to heaven because of belief and men who go to hell go because of unbelief.
How is it a waste of time if we are not told who the elect are? Nobody disputes that people who believe go to heaven and people who don't go to hell. Of course this is true. It most certainly is not anti Calvinistic.
Limited Atonement- Perhaps the most rediculous point of the five. Many times Christ says he died for all. Some, including my pastor, will say that by "all" and "world" meant the elect. (1 John 2:2- not only for us, but for the whole world.) I believe that Christ's death is sufficient for all but will be efficient only for some, those who believe.
Ridiculous? What I find ridiculous is that one can say that Christ died for every person born and yet most end up in hell. If Christ substitutionarly atoned for the sins of EPB then why do so many end up in hell. If His death apid for our sin then what is left to condemn us?
Irresistible Grace- Calvin here meant that man has no part in his choice of Christ or Hell. No where in the bible does the word irresistible come before the word grace. The word irresistible doesn't even sound right in front of grace. Prov. 29:1 points out that men are often reproved but they harden their necks. Here, clearly, man has the ability to either accept or reject. Remember when Christ cried over Jerusalem. He said how often he would have loved to gather his sheep but what? They would not have him.
The word trinity does not appear in the bible either. So what.
The ol' mis quote of Matthew 23:37. There is no crying in the verse. He did not want to gather His "sheep," He wanted to gather "Jerusalems" children. It was "Jerusalem" that was not willing, not the "children."
It is not wise to misrepresent God's Word.
Perserverance of the Saints- I don't believe in the perserverance of the saints, but I do believe in the preservation of the saints. I don't believe in the perserverance of the saints, but the perserverance of the Savior- Charles Spurgeon. Case of point-- Wine is just as good years later as it was when it was made right? Not because of the wine's perserverance, or efforts to last. But because of its preservation. (Jude 1; 1Thes. 5:23-- preservation, but not perserverance.) The sheep are safe in the hands of the Father not because of their perserverance, but because they are in the Father's hands.
Funny seeing that one who would argue for free will could say that you could not lose your salvation. Are you not free to leave if you want?
This is why I disagree with the five points of Calvinism. Not because of Curtis Hutson, but because of my own reading and studying of the Word. I've posted Scripture that opposes the five points, so I'd like some to post ones that support it, so I can view both sides equally. Thanks.[/quote] [/color]
With all due respect, nothing you said refutes Calvinism.
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Post by eternal on Sept 24, 2006 18:08:39 GMT -5
With all due respect, nothing you said refutes Calvinism. How about what I said?
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Post by the answer on Sept 25, 2006 16:35:00 GMT -5
WHat up E???
My time is getting more and more limited. I still wanna continue this discussion. However, I feel like I keep repeating myself. And i mean that in the sense that i'm having trouble putting together a different way of saying what i have said. it kinda feels like we are going around in circles. It's prolly due to me, since I can't articluate my thoughts differently.
all that to say..i'm gonna post the question/discussion on HCR...maybe have a few other opinions. that might spark new thoughts in my mind.
I do have a feew 'new' thoughts but i'll put those on HCR...theology...
I think you're argument should be considered, never heard this angle before...anyway FYI
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Post by 5pointer on Sept 26, 2006 1:31:53 GMT -5
A) We are created in God's image and posess the breath of God within us. If we were "exhaustively evil" or "totaly depraved" then that would by implication mean God's image and breath is evil. Can that be so?
I do not accept your definition of total depravity. "Exhaustively evil" does not reflect our doctrine.
Our doctrine is that man has been corrupted by sin in his entire being, That is, mans will, emotion, intellect, and so has been infected and no part of man is free from the effects of sin.
It also states that man is totally unable to do that which is pleasing to God outside of the work of the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 64:6---->"...all of our righteous deeds are like a filthy rag."
We are totally unable to turn to Christ for salvation.
John 6:44---->"No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."
We cannot understand spiritual things
1 Corinthians 2:14---->"But a natural man does not except the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
Calvinism does not teach that man is a bad as he could be, it teaches that we are unable to please Him or go to Him outside of His working in us.
Breath of God Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Job 27:3 For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils, Isaiah 2:22 Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
This simply states that God gave man life. Job is simply repeating what he said in the first part of the verse. Acknowledging that God gave him life.
This is no statement that God lives in all people.
Your argument seems to be that if man is totally depraved then Gods breath would be totally corrupt. Let me flip that back on you. If man is partially depraved, does that mean God breath is partially corrupt? If any sin exist in man, then by your argument, Gods breath must be tainted even a little bit.
[u]Image of God[/u] Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Genesis 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.
The human being is not in existence without the presence of God in their life sustaining them. This is true of all Creation. All creation shares in this (6:17; 7:15).[/color]
You must show what it means to be created in Gods image before presenting any argument.
Of man, God says that they die when His Spirit is removed from them:
" Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3)
Not sure what this verse has to do with you comment above.
The bible says that this Spirit returns back to God:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Why do you think that the "Spirit" in Gen. 6:3 is the same "spirit" in Eccl. 12:7.
You are assuming what you have yet to prove.
Acts 17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, `For we also are His children.'
Not sure how this verse is anti Calvinistic. We most certainly believe that man exist because of God.
The "in Him" does not mean we are all "in" God. It is a simple acknowledgment that God is our creator. Paul was explaining that this idol that they worshiped to an unknown God was really the God that created them. That is the entire context of the preceding verses.
"For we are also His children." At first glance this looks like it could be in favor of you. Not too fast. We cannot equivocate on the word "children."
If we are all already his children then what must we do with John 1:12
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God."
"Children" is used in different ways. In Acts 17 we are "children" by creation. Because God created us, we are all His children. Again, notice the context of Acts 17.
Yet, we become His children when we receive "His name."
Children is used with multiple meanings.
Paul says that every person lives, moves and exists (has their being) in God. Everyone, muslims, athiests, republicans (lol) it doesn't matter.
This is not a problem for Calvinist. We believe this.
And the scriptures teach that because of this intimacy that already exists, we may "seek God" and "grope for Him and find Him" since "He is not far from each one of us."
I'm not sure I see this "intimacy" your speaking of, but is it the same intimacy in John 1:12?
This blows apart TULIP all together IMO.
Sorry, but no.
B) The scripture says that obeying God is possible and "not too difficult." If we were exhaustively evil and incapable of doing what the scripture in Dt. 30 says is "not too difficult" and Paul quotes concerning the gospel in Romans 10, that would invalidate the scripture as erronious.
Where exactly does scripture say that obeying God is possible?
Thats right, Romans 8:7,8
"because the mind set on the flesh is hostile towards God; for it does not submit itself to the laws of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those in te flesh cannot please God."
Where does scripture say it is easy?
Thats right, Paul tells us in Romans 7:18, 19
"for I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil I do not want to do."
C) The bible commands us to do good and says IF we do this or IF we don't do that, then this or that will happen.
Once again, not a problem for Calvinist, we believe this.
A position that holds that humans are incapable of responding to these charges makes futile their very existence, they become an inherent farce.
Why?
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Post by the answer on Sept 26, 2006 16:38:40 GMT -5
Good points........... 5 pointer... u hit some things i totally missed
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